Final (5.3) Tech Dynamics

[Mark_Everson]

Richard:

Cool, we'll try the XML for now, if it doesn't work out, I'll do that tech builder. I'll send you a sample file soon.

I think many players will actually want to see the tag strength that goes into various things. Of course, I could be wrong. But given the amount of micromanagement people are willing to put into Civ...

I still favor using the same scale for all technologies. Some players Will want to see a big readout of all the tech levels. I'm one of them . The reason is that a lot of the effect of the technology Web depends on achieving specific numbers. If I am racing for Gunpowder, I want to know how close I am! It's not historically accurate, but its IMO and important feature in 4X type games. I agree that the kind of more-realistic interface that you are looking for will appeal to many players. But I think there are also many who will want more details. I expect we'll need to do both. Anyway, playtesting and opinions from the public are needed to resolve this IMO.

Thanks for the info Laurent! That will indeed make the files easier to read. Have you got a parser that will read this kind of XML? Or do they all? Thanks also for the &lt &gt trick!

[Mark_Everson]

Quick OO Strategy, high-level

Two basic tech objects, Tech and Application.

Tech is split into three categories: Theory (level 1), Field (level 2) and Skill (level 3). For now there is really no distinction between these three levels, but I am keeping them separate for possible future use.

Applications really behave differently, so they're a unique object by themselves.

I am also going to have a TechInfo class that holds all the unchanging info about each tech (most of the info in the tech model is of this sort). This will give more efficient memory usage, and allow for easy changing of Tech characteristics on the fly during the game for testing. All the actual Theory etc. objects will have is a pointer to the TechInfo object, a level and whatever else is civ-specific. There will be an analagous ApplicationInfo object.

BTW don't we need applications to have a tag to feed back tech growth that comes from use? FE Muskets have a Military tag? I wanted way back to have each application also have an experience level associated with it, but was outvoted ...

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 09, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Serious coding has started I don't have an XML parser yet, but hopefully will have one soon.

Are the required techs always going to be the same as the helpers?

Right now I have a container for each of required and helper techs, but if they're always the same then perhaps we just would need to add a 'required level' field to all the helpers. Though it may be safer just to leave the two types in to accomodate the occasional tech that is required but not a helper.

How about this. We unify Required techs and helpers. Helpers remain the same, but have a new value called 'required level'. Where there is a Req tech thats not a helper you can set h=0 and the 'helping' will have no effect regardless of the other parameters. Where there is a helper with no requirement you set Req level = 0. In lots of cases the helper is also a requirement and vice versa, and this will streamline things.

Whatcha think?

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 10, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Here is some initial output for you just to look over. I have gone ahead and unified Required and Helper techs as I mentioned above. These are "TechSpecs" objects that are the Platonic ideal of Techs, so they don't show current level. The tech objects that are actually used are set up, but I havent got them in the diagnostic trace. Nothing does anything yet, but the data structures are set up, and the objects are on their way! Next step will be to set up a clone of the spreadsheet, and run the tests for that.

Techs Existing:

Tech: Agriculture, Level 2
Ts: 0.0, cX = 1.0, mX = 1.0, DRX = 1.0, WX = 1.0
Helper: Biology, Weight 3, Offset 0, Level Required 0
Helper: Earth Sciences, Weight 2, Offset 0, Level Required 0
Tag: Agriculture Weight = 10

Tech: Biology, Level 1
Ts: 0.0, cX = 1.0, mX = 1.0, DRX = 1.0, WX = 1.0
Tag: Pure Science Weight = 10

Tech: Earth Sciences, Level 1
Ts: 0.0, cX = 1.0, mX = 1.0, DRX = 1.0, WX = 1.0
Tag: Pure Science Weight = 10


Richard: Is there a time its important for me to get the XML spec to you by considering your workload? I don't want to slow you down, but I'm not experienced with that stuff, and don't want to waste time either. I can get you something immediately if you want to get started, and don't mind potentially redoing a little bit of it in the future. If you wouldn't have much time to work on it in the near future anyway, then I'll definitely wait till like next weekend to get you someting.

-Mark

[Richard Bruns]

I am on Spring break at home now, and will soon be going to a research conference, so I won't be able to do much until next week.

There isn't any problem with unifying the required and helper techs that I can see.

I think that we can and should give the players all the tech information they need without using lists of numbers. What should they know?

The civ's tech ability compared to the neighbors.
The ability compared to the past; how much has it improved?
How happy is the populace with the tech level?

These three can easily be displayed with icons, no numbers required. Theae are also things that any ruler could be expected to know. Other things players want to know are not things that real rulers would know, but are important to the game. Here is my idea for displaying this:

The amount the tech level changed since last turn can be displayed with a color-coded list; players do not need to know the actual tech levels:

Tech Change:
Agriculture: +.2
Architecture:+1.2
Astronomy: +.01
Biology: -.2


Clicking on a number in this list could bring up a line graph that shows the recent trends in the tech level. Upcoming developments, like a new application or technology, could be marked on this graph, so the player sees a pictorial representation of where the tech is, where it has been, where it is going, and how long it will take to get there. Note that this graph does no necessarily have to have the actual tceh level marked on it.

Mark, I'll send you a Excel file with an example for this spreadsheet.

Edit: Attempting to get colored text
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited March 11, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Thanks for the info! In terms of the final part of your interface suggestion, I think it's moving in the right direction, but isn't quite there yet. The thing that I have trouble with is what if the critical application I am going for requires more than one tech? Other than that, your proposal strikes me as fairly reasonable, although I haven't put a lot of thought into this... We're not really at the point where we need to decide on the final interface yet anyway. The interface is going to be crude for quite some time and hopefully we'll get some further ideas on a final interface during playtesting.

[Richard Bruns]

We can put multiple graphs on one screen. The past progress, projection, and goals for a tech can all be the same color, and in this way we can put around half a dozen techs up on one chart. Or we can display techs in multiple charts and switch between the charts.

[Mark_Everson]

That might work, but it sounds as bad as numbers at least to me...

On another topic. My coding has made me think about the helper tech level equation: RHL = (h1*(HT1n +O1-Tn) + . . . + hx*(HTxn +Ox-Tn))/(h1+ . . .hx). The problem I've just seen is that, because of the divisor, the following effects of a single helper tech are identical for the FratPranks Tech that helps the CowTipping tech:
h=1 FratPranks
h=5 FratPranks
h=10 FratPranks

All give the same resulting RHL = HT1n +O1-Tn

Also the following two helper tech systems are identical:
h=1 FratPranks
h=1 IntenseBoredom

h=10 FratPranks
h=10 IntenseBoredom

I know you can change W, or the Os to make these various equivalent things have different effects, but its not very intuitive.

I propose that we ditch the denominator in the formula above. That way a helper with an h=10 will directly have the intuitive result of being much stronger than one with h=2. We can rescale W if necessary because of this change.

It seems to me my proposal is more straightforward for players and scenario designers. Do you agree, or do you see problems with it, and if so what? I'll code it as-is for now, since its trivial to change it, and wait to see what you have to say.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Mark:

About your concerns for the graph proposal (in dealing with techs with multiplie requirements) Rich brought up in dealing with tech levels we could do something along the following:

Have the graph show when at current rate, an application will be discovered, when you'll meet the requirements for that particular tech level for it, if it will be earlier (kinda like a dashed line showing the exact date). You can click a button to see what other techs affect it and do the same for those that are required techs. For helper techs it may be a little more difficult.

Anyway this is also good for use with people that want just general knowledge on their tech levels and want to hear quick ideas such as "We're nearing a breakthough in physics, just a few more years!" or "We seem to be lagging in our biological research and its hampering other areas because of this."

[Richard Bruns]

Yes, Mark, I agree with the point about the helper techs. . .

quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns on 03-01-2000 10:45 AM As I did a final review of the system last night, I noticed a few things that might need to be changed. The first is the formula for the RHL. Dividing by the sum of the h values hurts the system IMO. Currently, it would be impossible to change the total effect that RP's have. If you assigned a h1 of 3 and a h2 of 6, the H factor would be exactly the same as if you assigned a h1 of 1 and a h2 of 2. Given the stated definition of h, I don't think that is a good thing. So I propose that we stop dividing by the h terms. This would make the H value larger, but that can be compensated for by changing the other variables. If it turns out that I am wrong, we can fix things so that the sum of h is one, and the system will act the way it currently does. Dividing by the values makes the system a lot less flexible; there is no way to alter the total effect that helper techs have.

Sorry for having to make you reinvent the wheel. I wonder if there is any other point in this behemoth of a system that I haven't communicated well.

[Mark_Everson]

Aw, dang! I suspected as much, since some of your equations had the divisor and others didn't. And also the spreadsheet didn't have a divisor. But I'd already written the thing before I twigged to that, so I figured I'd make sure...

[Mark_Everson]

Coding Status Update

A new pro Java programmer, named Gary, has expressed interest in taking over coding of the tech model. I have turned over what I had accomplished over the past ten days or so to him. He said he already has a good HTML parser at work, and thought he could manage both the parser for tech, and the GUI tech builder utility by the end of this coming week. Hopefully we'll hear from him here shortly. He also has an extensive math background, so he should be able to fully participate in the discussions on mathematical details of the model. He's also an XP advocate, so we've gotta get him and F_Smith together .

When you get here Gary, an official welcome to the Clash project!

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 18, 2001).]

[Gary Thomas 2]

Mark has asked me to take over the coding for the Technology section.

I am a Java Architect and used to be a technical team leader for a Java coding team.

I have read all the tech threads (that wiped out the weekend).

My design orientation is very similar to that of F_Smith - I am an enthusiast for OO programming, and Kent Beck's Extreme Programming in particular.

I also have quite a bit of experience with XML. I will try and have a working user interface to allow input of technologies and applications within the next few days. This will follow the requirements listed a few posts back.

Cheers

[Mark_Everson]

quote: Originally posted by Gary Thomas 2 on 03-18-2001 07:38 PM I have read all the tech threads (that wiped out the weekend).

LOL! I Believe it... Stout guy (or something else ) to carry through with it!

Great to have you on the project!

[Gary Thomas 2]

Thanks for the Welcome!

The email I got with my password said that I can change it: "Note that you change this password online using the "edit profile" button on our bulletin board"

When I tried this, there did not seem to be any option to change my password. Can you change your password?

First cut at the tech editing user interface is working - it picks up a file and parses it. Course it doesn't do anything else, but I am getting there.

Cheers