Map Graphics

[Mark_Everson]

All:

Richard made a good suggestion, about using the base Civ2 iso graphics resolution (64x32) for Clash. And Fiera thinks its a good idea too. Please let us know what You think. (We will probably go ahead and put out demo 5 at the old resolution in any case, because I don't want to swich horses in mid-stream...) Some good points about the idea, and further discussion is below. I am also going to post this in the units thread since it is equally relevant there.

I agree that we could use 64x32 as the base resolution for Clash. We were looking into things like representing TF composition on the main map, which is one of the things that lead us to the larger tileset we've had up to now as the default. But although that idea would look cool, for a strategic game it really seems overkill in retrospect.

The change would potentially give us access to a vast amount of art that we could use either as placeholders, or for the real thing. I think many artists would be willing to give us permission to use their work. Mixing and matching units of different styles could certainly become an issue. Fiera, what do you think about that? It still seems on balance worth it.

So what do other people think?

[Richard Bruns]

I seem to recall that we already got permission to use the complete set of "Hi-Res" alternate graphics that someone made for Civ 2. Using that would give us more freedom to play with tech advances and such in the demo. Also, Fiera can then devote more time to making special Clash units while we use the stock units for the more basic armies.

PS: Once the basic demo is built, I would also like to experiment with modpack design as a test of flexibility. With the standard tile size, I could draw from the library of fantastic, magical, and sci-fi units to do this. Otherwise, I'd have to make my own art for my experiments, which would get very ugly.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited March 22, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Hi Gents. Fiera, in the units thread I suggested making a comparison of 120x60 and 64x32 tile-based unit graphics. In the light of your good comments here, I would include 80x40 in the request now . I think your ideas about the tradeoffs on the power circle are good. Perhaps you could either fake up some power circles to go with the units, or paste your units on a little piece of the 80-scale demo from the web site? Then we'd be in a position to truly evaluate your ideas. If you're up to it it think it would be a really valuable exercise.

[Fiera]

I'm quoting Mark's words from the Units Graphics thread:

quote: I think it would be useful for us, if its not too much work for you, to put up against each other the 120-scale units next to similar 64-pixel ones so we can compare what we're losing if we change the default size.

Well, you'll find that the units I've designed so far aren't too big to fit into a 64x32 tile. They are not much bigger that the standard Civ2 units.

I've put up for you a demo with my units and buildings on each different tile map. In the 64x32 tile, I've made it over a Civ2 map both with my original units and with these units "reduced" to a 85% of their actual size as well.

Well, take a look and see for yourselves:
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

I'm looking forward to your comments.

Please note that, due to the GIF format limitations, the original map background has lost some of its colors.
[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited March 22, 2001).]

[Mark_Everson]

Wow, Fiera, good stuff! I'm tired, and need a little time to collect my thoughts, but here's the initial ones...

80 wide does look good. Although I think the unit would need to be scaled down a little because:

1. Clash can have two opposing sides in the same square, so need to be able to squeeze in two.
2. Allow for larger chariots, etc., than the man-sized figures, like you pointed out.
3. Make it so the Power Circles, if we use them, can have a range of about 3 in diameter without looking like a ring around a guy's legs at the smaller end while not expanding to the square edge at the larger end.

These problems are of course even worse for example 4...

One thing that would be helpful in the next revision is to put a civ-size unit on each sample also.

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 10:15 PM 1. Clash can have two opposing sides in the same square, so need to be able to squeeze in two.

Are you really sure about that? 'Cause it will be almost imposible to do with big units such as chariots, catapults and tanks.

I'd better not have to scale down the units, since it's very difficult to make unit icons look good in a smaller size than that...

quote: One thing that would be helpful in the next revision is to put a civ-size unit on each sample also.

Yes, I'll try to do it, but may have a problem with the colors now that I converted the files into GIFs...

[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited March 22, 2001).]

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 10:15 PM 3. Make it so the Power Circles, if we use them, can have a range of about 3 in diameter without looking like a ring around a guy's legs at the smaller end while not expanding to the square edge at the larger end.

I actually think that you can have three different size Power Circles in a 80x40 tile. I've uploades an example to the web page. Go here:
http://www.geocities.com/fiera_com/graphics.html

Look at #5. I've zoomed the pic to twice its size at #6 so you can all see it better.

To avoid any confusions: the red circle at #2 is the yellow circle at #5 and #6.

[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited March 22, 2001).]

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-22-2001 07:12 AM Richard made a good suggestion, about using the base Civ2 iso graphics resolution (64x32) for Clash. And Fiera thinks its a good idea too.

I'm sorry, but I think I have to make you know one of the major flaws of the 64x32 tile, even though I feel it would be better than a 120x60 tile.

In Civ2, you usually had a problem creating units: the scale between infantry units and cavalry units. A different scale for ships, planes and other big units is a must, since you couldn't possibly have a Carrier with a consistent size when compared to a Phalanx. But the problem between infantry and cavalry units can be avoided with a slightly bigger size tile.

And what's more important: I think that the Power Circle would be much difficult to implement in such a small tile.

So let's say we use the 80x40 tile you have in the Graphics Demo at the Clash website. Being bigger than the standard Civ tile, it allows for bigger and/or more detailed unit (ie, a good chariot unit), and there should be room enough for Power Circles . Besides, we have a lot of things that we can use, at least for the demos. City icons and units originally made for Civ2 wouldn't look too small in such a tile. I've already made some tests with my own isometric city icons.

Furthermore, since Clash isn't going to be a Civ-clone in its dynamics, but a very different game, I think you should give him unique and original aesthetics too. I generally like the 80x40 tile since it makes everything look clearer (there is much more "space" between objects) when compared to the Civ2 default map.

quote: Mixing and matching units of different styles could certainly become an issue. Fiera, what do you think about that? It still seems on balance worth it.

As a player that puts a lot of attention in the artistics of the game, I think I'll warn you about the dangers of having too different style units on the map. Even such a carefully planned game like Civ2 annoyed me somewhat for that reason. There even were some foot units with different style and size (ie, the Explorer and the Pikemen). I'd try to go for as much uniformity as possible in the long run.

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns on 03-22-2001 08:47 AM Also, Fiera can then devote more time to making special Clash units while we use the stock units for the more basic armies.

Thumbs up! I like what I've seen so far of the Clash project, and I'd really like to help you with the art as much as I can.

[Lord God Jinnai]

WoW! I just checked out your new sets and i must say your cities kick a**! You think you can clear up some of the other stuff especially the forest?

Also Mark, when do you plan to start using the differnt tilsets for cities and units for various cultures?

[Mark_Everson]

Fiera:

The three closely-nested circles look really cool, but unfortunately that doesn't cover what they need to do functionally. First, if we use something like the circles, I think they need to be player color, so you can't use that to distinguish them (I don't think that was your intention anyway, but just to be sure ). Second, when there are alot of My-civ-color circles on the map, it won't be easy visually to tell the red one in your demos from the blue one. Third, it needs more than three levels, it really needs something like a Factor of 3 in diamater like I said earlier. That's because you need to have recognizable at least five or six gradiations between Very powerful TFs for the age, or relatively insignificant garisons. As currently defined a range of 3 in diameter lets us show a range of 9 in power, which is I think adequate.

On opposing figures in the same square. Well, IMO it would be cool to show that on the map. Gives the right visceral feel that my guys are Fighting someone! But Power Circles of different color in a single square would show there is a fight going on in a crude way (that's what's done in d4). I think offsetting the figures to the sides and/or top/bottom should work. Perhaps that's the next important thing to try. Take two chariots and see what size they can be and still both fit...

LGJ:

Well, IMO we should only start on different cultures for the units/buildings in a serious way when a reasonably complete graphics spec is determined. Because adding only one extra culture doubles the work, and if the spec isn't finalized that would be wasted work... But that's just my opinion. We could probably get someones permission to use an alternate-culture civ2 set soon if it seems like we need to test something with two styles of units.

[LDiCesare]

Two units per square means two civs (or something like that) but why ONLY TWO? Should anything in the models prevent three or more task forces of different civs to converge at the same point? (Isn't that simultaneous moves?)
Well, OK, that should rarely happen and it would be hell to show it on the poor tile.

[Mark_Everson]

quote: Originally posted by Fiera on 03-23-2001 12:22 PMI'm not yet truly sure of understanding what you mean. I think you want the biggest circle to be three times bigger than the smallest one?

Yes, that's it. The largest circle should be 3x as far across as the smallest one.

On opposing figures. Well, lets try the alternatives, at least as much as you're willing to humor me . Once we see the advantages and problems with each approach we will make the decision. And since much of the work looks like it will be yours, you get a Big vote in the decision!

[Fiera]

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson on 03-23-2001 07:06 PM On opposing figures. Well, lets try the alternatives, at least as much as you're willing to humor me .

Well, first I need to figure out how to make chariots small enough... This may take some time, let's see what I can do...

quote: Once we see the advantages and problems with each approach we will make the decision. And since much of the work looks like it will be yours, you get a Big vote in the decision!

I have an alternative idea, it doesn't affect to the power circles, but to the "aspect" of the units. Shall I throw it in?

[Mark_Everson]

Sure Fiera, any ideas you want to try out are welcome! You get to to have more fun than just designing the units . Hopefully you'll come up with the brainstorm that solves all our problems has been hiding from us in the past...