Map Graphics

[Paul Crocker]

I'm starting a new thread on map graphics to pick up where we left off last week in the previous (doomed) thread. We'll try to limit the discussion in this thread to the map graphics, and JohnMcd (or whoever adresses the topic first) can start a new one on unit graphics. Safety in diversity, I say! (Not to mention clarity)

[Edit 3/17/01 by Mark]
The previous thread that Paul mentions is the old Graphics Thread that the BB software ate! A backup copy now graces our web site . It has a lot of good ideas on where we should go for both the map and unit graphics in Clash, although nothing final has been decided on most issues. This current thread will make more sense to you if you at least skim the old Graphics Thread first. If you want to talk about unit graphics, this thread is not the right place. You should go to the Unit Graphics thread.

Let's get these vital graphics specifications discussions going again!

[/Edit]

To refresh everyone, here is my intial proposal for the tiles. I took note of Mark's suggestion for alternative road tiles to add some variety to the map. While that means an additional 32 tiles, they should be relatively easy to draw as compared to some of the others:

File Format: TIFF (may want to change this to GIF89A)
Maximum file size:?

Palette: Civilization II palette with modifications (256 colors?)
Isometric (diamond) tiles (width to height ratio of 2:1), 3 preset scales
(drawn at that specific scale) and ability to allow user-defined scaling:
· 120 pixels (width)
· 80 pixels
· 20 pixels

Tiles should be created so that they overlap slightly when drawn from
right to left, top to bottom.

Tiles will also be layered to provide ability to modify terrain with
improvements (roads, cities, fortifications, etc):
· layer 1 = base terrain layer
· layer 2 = rivers
· layer 3 = improvements 1 (ancient/medieval)
· layer 4 = improvements 2 (modern)
· layer 5 = cities

Current plans estimate 154-168 total tiles.

List of Base Tiles (24+), by climate (multiple tile styles indicated in
parentheses, climate indicated in CAPS)

ARCTIC
Glacier
Snowpack

BOREAL
Tundra
Boreal forest
Bog

TEMPERATE
Forest (3)
Plains
Grasslands
Swamp
Desert

TROPICAL(includes sub-tropical/neo-tropical)
Rainforest (3)
Savanna
Swamp
Desert

UNIFORM(doesn't vary much in appearance between climates)
High Mountains
Low Mountains
Hills, green
Hills, arid
Hills, rocky
Ocean
Coastal (4-10)
*Rivers (?)

*Rivers will be displayed over the base layer, as a separate layer

List of Improvements Layers (88)

ANCIENT
Roads, flat (16)
Roads, hills (16)
Roads, mountains (8)
Irrigation (2)
Mines (2)
Terraces (2)

MODERN
Roads, flat (16)
Roads, hills (16)
Roads, mountains (8)
Irrigation (2)

List of Cities Layer (42)

ANCIENT
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)

MEDIEVAL
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)

MODERN
Cities (3 styles for each culture)
Fortresses (2)

LIST OF CULTURES FOR CITIES
Occidental
Oriental
Middle Eastern
Neo-American

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 17, 2001).]

[Paul Crocker]

It would be really helpful to get some feedback on which cultures we should represent, since JohnMcd will also model the unit icons based on culture. Any suggestions (see previous post...)

[Lord God Jinnai]

Me and rich are discussing the various types of cultures which will affect map graphics for cities and such. Right now we've got about 10-12 for anceint and about 8-10 modern. This needed to be posted here but we've been discuessing mainly because we need to see how cultures will impact the tech tree. Both of us thought that limiting it to 4 like in Civ2 was way too few.

Now on to the details. There should be a deep ocean and reef type areas.

[Paul Crocker]

Thanks for the ocean ideas...it would definitely be a nice addition. Would there be another reason for reefs, aside from aesthetics (good to know this since it may affect the map generator model)? I know that people had mentioned subs before, but reef locations are more of a tactical consideration as opposed to a strategic concern (which is our design standard).

We'll need to limit the number of cultures, at least initially, since it dramatically increases the #'s of tiles and icons we'll need to produce. Since they'll be drawn as GIF's and TIF's, we can always leave it open to the player to expand on the "basic" set that we provide in the release version of Clash. We can maybe accomodate 5-6 cultures, but that would be pressing it, given our current staff size in the artist dept (just me and JohnMcD!). If we were to get more artists and have them devote their work soley on additional cultural tiles and icons, we can gladly implement them! I'd personally LOVE to see 12 cultures represented, but I just don't have the time to draw 504 tiles IN ADDITION to the basic terrain tiles(100+).

If there ARE any aspiring artists out there, please contact me, so we can work towards this goal BEFORE starting on some tiles, so that we can coordinate and avoid duplication of work. Now hiring

[Paul Crocker]

LGJ: Could you please list the 24+ cultures that you are considering? I think that we may be able to combine several of them for display purposes (you could still keep them separate for the tech models, etc). I'm nost assuming that the following example is one of yours - it's just an example to illustrate what I'm talking about: Latin and Germanic would both be combined into Occidental. I realize there are difference between the two, but as you said in the character thread - you could just give them different names

[Kanzid Stonebreath]

On Coral Reefs

Two points about coral reefs first they could either be used as trade, of fishing, and also don't they help decrease the damage done by storms.
Also Graphicswise couldnt you just implemet it in stages say first just one forest picture etc.

[johnmcd]

Paul, my friend John Gooch is helping me with the unit icons now , I thought I mailed you about it but I seem not to have during the confusion over the death of a thread .

[Mark_Everson]

On cultures to use, I'd go with European, Oriental, Middle-Eastern/Indian, and after that whatever there is time for... I know it's kind of a cop-out, but covering the world and history at any level of detail is, as Paul said, prohibitive.

[Lord God Jinnai]

Ancient
-------
American Natives
African Natives
Pacific Islanders
Northern European (Vikings, Scandinavians, Germanic Tribes)
Southern European (Greek, Roman, Feudal System)
Arab (Pre-Islamic)
Eurasian Tribes (Mongols, Scythians)
Southeast Asia
India
China/Japan

Medevil (* means graphics can be same as mentioned ancient culture)
--------
* North American Natives (Native Americans)
South American Natives
* African Natives (African Natives)
* Pacific Islanders (Pacific Islanders)
Western Europe
Eastern Europe
Arab (post-Islamic)
* Southeast Asia (Southeast Asia)
India
China/Japan

Modern
------
Central/South Afria
West Europe/US/Canada
Central/Southern Americas
Pacific Islanders
East Europe/Former Soviet Union
Arab/Sahara
Southeast Asia
India
China
Japan

Future ? (These will need to be implimted since some people will like me have far future techs, though not right away).
--------
Arab/Sahara
China/SE Asia
India
Europe/US/Canada
Japan

The last section is based on how i see things developing culturally right now. I doubt, like in the past, there will be an omni-cultural world so there shouldn't be 1 set of graphics for future either.
I have tried to narrow it down somewhat from our inital list, but it can be hard. Also in modern times why some countries like China and Japan are seperated its because of the western influence of US (mainly) and W. Europe (lesser) that causes it to be differnt from China (Communist viewpoint).

[Paul Crocker]

LGJ: This is a really good breakdown of the cultures for inclusion in several of the models, and I hope you can actually fit it all in. I would disagree with the "future" cultures, but that's a moot point since noone can predict the future with much certainty

As for the graphics, I'm with Mark on the plan of attack. For starters, we'll have to implement a few all-inclusive cultures (broad groups) for design styles, and add later if time permits.

[Paul Crocker]

For the "big picture" overview map in the interface: will this be drawn as tiles? If so (I'm assuming it is...), what size should the tiles be? Should there be any attempt to indicate land type (color coded perhaps), or should it just be land/sea as in civ? If color coded, we could indicate flat vs mountainous, or even get more detailed than that...just depends on what people want.

I'm making some progress on the revamped tiles (some look quite different than the original sample, so it should be interesting to get some feedback on them). I'll try and get another "sample" up over the holidays.

[Kull]

*Bump*

[L o k i]

Hey all, I had a look at some of the graphic work done. And decided I should give a helping hand since I go to these forums a lot.

Anyway, TIFF is a photo format, so using it for tiles that have 256 colours is pointless, you may aswell use gifs. But if you are going to use more than 256 colours you should use JPG at it's highest quality.
It's best to keep the file size down to a minimum. TIFF are one of the largest image formats there are. It was created simply to keep all the colour shades at maximum quality. Which is obviously best used for photos. BMP is the same, notice how big those files are??

I highly suggest doing what CtP have done, or ToT, using 16bit colours and JPG's. It's the obvious best way to go.

Right now I am working on a modern city look, so far I like it, and would love to see it in the dark time aswell, which is why I am suggesting that half of the map be night, the other day. All you'd have to do is decrease each images lightness and maybe contrast to the same percentage and it would look dark.
Wouldn't you love to see your city shining it's lights in the dark too? I'll create one and show it, see what you think.

I know this is getting a bit much, but I think I am up to it, a few had suggested in Civ3 suggestions, that you should be able to build a city next to one of your current cities and they would both merge together. Thus making it harder to take, which is more realistic I think.
It's also a great sense of power. You could have the largest city on the planet, and it will show!

By the way, the aura? around the units is ugly! I hope that isn't being used.

[L o k i]

I've done one modern city now. Excuse the houses at the front edges, I hate them! I don't know whether to fix them or remove them, or put something else there, any suggestions? http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~knowles/DayTime.jpg
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~knowles/NightTime.jpg
And here's the night time one, be quiet, the people are sleeping, shhhh..

[L o k i]

Hey here's something cool, use one browser window, open one of the images, then load the other image, then use your back and forward buttons to flip through em'! looks cool hey!!