Technology System E-Mail Archive

[Richard Bruns]

> Okay that was prob a leftover from before i remodeled it. I think i was
> intending it to be hang gliders and such.
> ---
> OK, but I still think it is a bit too early.

Well did u consider basic tech levels also?

> Also lets say u skipped broze working and went strait to iron.
> U'd still haveto spend some time researching these which is why i think
> they should be put outside the metallurgy scale and researched sep. This
> will make it much easier.
> ---
> I don't understand this.

Ok i'm a civ who never had access to tin which is required for bronze
working. Now i have plenty of iron and eventually i develope iron working,
takes a little longer but i do it. Then low and behold i discover this
other civ has bronze working which i've never heard of. My reasearchers
trade some and since we know a lot about metallurgy it doesn't take too long
to figure out, but it does take a little while.

> Still that comes as an overall increase in all areas of military, not
> justv aircraft and it would be kinda redundant to put stealth subs,
stealth
> planes, stealth tanks... mainly most of these stealth advances in the
latter
> half of the century have come from advances in differnt types of radar and
> how to avoid them so u might add a basic tech for either stealth or radar.
> It just makes it easier to incorperate a stealth battleship if u really
> wanted to instead of stealth fighters for some reason.
> ---
> It's not like you research all of this seperately. You simply ask
> scientists to make better stuff and this is what happens. There is no
real
> difference; your stuff is just at a higher percentage. I see all of the
> labels as meaningless; the real value is simply the percentage. But you
are
> right in that once stealth is discovered, it can be used for lots of
things.
> I will have to work on that.

OK see what u come up with then.

> Ok. Well u did bring up something i wanted to talk about in another
> way. That is what basic techs rep. Is it to current modern levels or my
> original idea of simply a percentage beyond the basic knowledge of that
> technology.
> ---
> I think that 0% is no knowledge whatsoever and 100% is the best human
> knowledge at 2000 AD. Between that, it is a linear scale of ability.
> ---
> The only reason i have a prob with the former is because, well acutally
> 2 (but 1 is easier to solve than the other).
> 1> What determines 100%? Is it the highest level achieved thusfar or is
> it closer to most of the rest of the world if one civ is really ahead in
an
> area. Take the case i had for agriculture. The US produces more food
> than any other nation per acre. France is second, but much closer to the
> rest of the world. The US produces over 400% more food per acre than
france
> so should France or US rep the 100% mark?
> ---
> As the best, the US is at 100%. But that would mean the rest of the world
> is at or below 25%. Maybe we should use a logarithmic scale instead of a
> linear one. That would probably be better, and now that I think about it
I
> set my military stuff to a log scale.
> ---
> 2> How will we determine what future techs start out at? Some might be
> easy, but what about some of the more advanced ones, esp far future
> ones.
> ---
> For far future stuff, set 100% to be the highest that the player can get.
> 0% is still no knowledge and 1% is minimal knowledge.

Um that would get confusing then for the player because they may have
agriculture at 340% and then have something like cybernetics at 17%.

> PS I won't get done as fast as I thought. I'm really sorry. Is there a
> deine for version 4, because if there is I will finish what that demo
needs.

Demo 4 is out, but mark wants the new tech model in for ver 5 if poss. The
only thing we wanted was a few ancient techs and their respective basic
techs. No more than 5-6, just to see if it will work.

[Richard Bruns]

Um that would get confusing then for the player because they may have
agriculture at 340% and then have something like cybernetics at 17%.
---
Why would that be confusing? The player will have been researching agriculture for thousands of years, and cybernetics for about a dozen. Those levels would make sense in those circumstances.
---
Demo 4 is out, but mark wants the new tech model in for ver 5 if poss.
The
only thing we wanted was a few ancient techs and their respective basic
techs. No more than 5-6, just to see if it will work.
---
When should this be done by?

[Richard Bruns]

> Um that would get confusing then for the player because they may have
> agriculture at 340% and then have something like cybernetics at 17%.
> ---
> Why would that be confusing? The player will have been researching
> agriculture for thousands of years, and cybernetics for about a dozen.
> Those levels would make sense in those circumstances.

Ok see what about electronics where will it start out at? They wouldn't
have been reasearching that for thousands of years and yet ur saying that it
should be at 100% for modern times as well as agriculture. Either u'd have
to make the scaling quite rapid for electronics or start it up really high
(like 70%). U should stick with one scale for the entire thing, either mine
or yours not both.

> Demo 4 is out, but mark wants the new tech model in for ver 5 if poss.
> The
> only thing we wanted was a few ancient techs and their respective basic
> techs. No more than 5-6, just to see if it will work.
> ---
> When should this be done by?

Didn't say...you'd haveta talk to him.

[Richard Bruns]

Ok see what about electronics where will it start out at? They wouldn't
have been reasearching that for thousands of years and yet ur saying
that it should be at 100% for modern times as well as agriculture. Either u'd have to make the scaling quite rapid for electronics or start it up really high (like 70%). U should stick with one scale for the entire thing, either mine or yours not both.
---
In my tech model, I will use a 0-100% scale for every tech, where 0% is no knowledge, 1% is minimal knowledge, and 100% is the highest level of the tech as of January 1, 2000. If everyone decides to change these percentages to something else, it will be easy to convert. The 0-100% scale is a lot easier for me to work with. Note that all future techs I am dealing with are just a higher level of current knowledge in some field. I am not insisting that the final model be this way; I just want to work with that system for now.

[Richard Bruns]

> Ok see what about electronics where will it start out at? They wouldn't
> have been reasearching that for thousands of years and yet ur saying
> that it should be at 100% for modern times as well as agriculture. Either
> u'd have to make the scaling quite rapid for electronics or start it up
> really high (like 70%). U should stick with one scale for the entire
thing,
> either mine or yours not both.
> ---
> In my tech model, I will use a 0-100% scale for every tech, where 0% is no
> knowledge, 1% is minimal knowledge, and 100% is the highest level of the
> tech as of January 1, 2000. If everyone decides to change these
percentages
> to something else, it will be easy to convert. The 0-100% scale is a lot
> easier for me to work with. Note that all future techs I am dealing with
> are just a higher level of current knowledge in some field. I am not
> insisting that the final model be this way; I just want to work with that
> system for now.

OK.. Well now that we got that cleared up, do u have a new relative date u
think u'll be ready to send me what u have?

[Richard Bruns]

Okay, here it is. After many false starts and failures, I think I have something that works. This scale only covers scientific and engineering progrss; specific social ideas are left untouched as they can't fit in this model.
Broad, contiguous techs are defined as percentages from zero to a hundred. Zero percent represents no knowledge, 1% represents minimal knowledge, and 100% represents the highest level of application as of January 1, 2000. The scale is logarithmic, with each 10% increase representing approximately a doubling in knowledge or skill. This might not be entirely accurate, but it works for now and we can rescale it later.

Specific applications have percent prerequisites in one or more techs, as well as other possible requirements. For example, a Fission Power Plant would need something around Power Generation 60%, Chemistry 80%, Physics-Electromagnetics 70%, and Access to Uranium. The exact percentages will have to be determined by playtesting. Until then, I could guess at whatever you wanted to build. Send me a list of what you want included and I will make a list of tech prerequisites for that thing.

No military techs are included here.

All names are preliminary. Feel free to come up with better ones.

I will define all techs in the following format:

Name--Prerequisite(s)
For example: Water Transport--Access to water

Levels of progress in the tech, as well as former techs it includes. These techs will be discovered as your level of the tech raises. Note that these are not necessarily linear discoveries.

Dependencies. These are techs that aid this technology at certain percentages. The higher your level in the listed tech(s), the faster you research this tech. If a certain level of a dependency is a prerequisite, it will have an asterisk with the percentage beside it. If there is no dependency, None is listed.

For example, consider Water Transport. At first, boats are made of wood, so the Water Transport tech is dependent on Woodworking. It requires some woodworking skill to make a boat, so you need a certain percentage of that before you can build a boat. After that, a higher Woodworking skill means that your Water Transport tech raises faster. After a while, about 50% Water Transport, wooden ships have reached their limit and ships need to be made of metal. So at that point, the Water Transport tech depends on Metal Working. But metal ships require good metal working, so you must have a certain percentage before you can make them.
You also need to power the ships, so the Water Transport tech level also depends on your Portable Power Generation tech.
The dependency line then looks like this:
0%-Woodworking(*20%)-50%-Metal Working(*40%)-100%
0%-Portable Power Generation-100%

Note that the tech does not rise automatically as the tech levels of the dependencies rise. It must still be researched individually. A higher level means that each RP spent gives more increase in the tech.

Effects. What the tech naturally does, if anything.

I will start with basic techs and then go on to applications.

Biology (Organism Structure)
Biology, Microbiology
0%-None-50%-Optics(*20%)-100%

Chemistry
Alchemy, Chemistry
0%-None-100%

Communication
Diplomacy, Propaganda
0%-None-100%
Increases your ability to communicate with and manipulate others. Helps with trading, diplomatic relations, and controlling your people.

Ecology and Geology (Planetary Sciences)
Ecology, Theory of Evolution, Greenhouse Theory
0%-None-100%
Decreases the environmental impact of your civ's actions.

Government
0%-None-100%
Increases the effectiveness and efficiency of the government. Higher levels make people happier and run the country more efficiently.

Mathematics
Arithmetic, Algebra, Calculus, Statistics, Nonlinear Math
0%-Computational Hardware-100%
Aids the progress of all techs; vital to scientific growth.

Physics-Mechanics
Ballistics, Theory of Gravity, Theory of Physics
0%-None-100%

Physics-Electromagnetics--Access to Metal
Theory of Magnetism, Discovery of Wave Spectra, Atomic Theory, Quantum Physics, Quantum Mechanics
0%-None-60%-Electronics(*10%)-100%
----
Agriculture
Plow, Drainage, Irrigation, Crop Rotation, Fertilizer, Pesticides
0%-Biology, Ecology and Geology, Chemistry-100%
Higher levels feed more people per acre, but also have increased environmental impact per acre. Higher levels also make crop failure due to natural disasters less likely.

Air Travel
Balloons, Planes, Jets
0%-Physics-Mechanics(*30%)-10%-Portable Power Generation(*40%), Woodworking(*50%)-40%-Portable Power Generation(*60%), Metalworking(*50%)-100%
0%-Physics-Mechanics-100%
Allows goods and people to be moved by air.

Architecture
Bridge Building, Tower, Skyscraper
0%-Brick/Cement/Stone(*10%)-40%-Metalworking(*20%)-100%
0%-Woodworking-100%
Affects the quality and maximum size of structures built by your civ.

Brick/Cement/Stone
0%-None-40%-Chemistry-100%

Civil Engineering/Infrastructure
Sewers, Mail, Power Grids, Water Systems
0%-All Techs-100%
Allows for the building of various public works, and makes them more effective.

Ceramics
Pottery, Glass
0%-Chemistry-100%

Communication Systems and Media
Written Language, Clay Tablets, Papyrus, Paper, Printing Press, Telegraph, Telephone, Radio, Television, Wireless Communication, Computer Networks
0%-None-10%-Chemistry-30%-Mechanical Engineering-50%-Electronics(*1%)-100%
Aids the progress of all techs. Increases your ability to spread information. Also has the effect of making your population more culturally homogenized.

Computational Hardware
Abacus, Slide Rule, Analog Computer, Digital Computer
0%-None-20%-Electronics(*10%)-100%

Computer Software--Computational Hardware 20%
Software, AI, Genetic Algorithms
0%-Computational Hardware, Mathematics-100%
Aids the progress of all techs.

Electronics--Power Generation 40%
Radar, Microelectronics, Laser, Holograms
0%-Physics-Electromagnetics, Metal Working, Synthetics, Ceramics-100%

Fabric/Leather
0%-None-100%
Needed to make many things

Genetics
Breeding, Genetics, Cloning, Genetic Engineering
0%-Mathematics-30%-Biology(*70%)-100%
Improves agricultural production and anything using animals.

Industrial Engineering/Management
Factory, Assembly Line
0%-None-100%
Increases production, uses resources and manpower more efficiently.

Land Transport Devices
Cart, Wagon, Automobile
0%-Mechanical Engineering, Portable Power Generation-100%
Allows goods and people to be moved faster and more efficiently.

Mass Tansit Systems
Railroad, Monorail, Mass Transit
0%-Mechanical Engineering(*10%)-70%-Electronics(*70%)-100%
0%-Architecture, Industrial Engineering/Management-100%
Allows goods and people to be moved faster and more efficiently.

Mechanical Engineering
Wheel, Mechanics, Machinery
0%-Woodworking-30%-Metalworking(*20%)-80%-Synthetics(*10%)-100%

Medicine
Medicines, Surgery, Vaccine, Artificial Limb
0%-No Prerequisite-10%-Biology(*10%)-80%-Genetics(*80%)-100%
0%-Biology-100%
Higher levels make people live longer and be healthier and happier.

Metalworking--Access to Metals
Copper Working, Bronze Working, Metallurgy, Iron Working, Steel Working, Aluminum Working, Alloy
0%-Chemistry-100%

Optics
Mirror, Telescope, Microscope, Fiber Optics
0%-Ceramics(*20%)-50%-Physics-Electromagnetics(*20%), Ceramics-100%

Portable Power Generation
People, Animals, Sails, Steam Engines, Gas Engines, Rockets, Jets
0%-Genetics-30%-Mechanical Engineering(*30%), Chemistry-100%
0%-Mechanical Engineering-100%

Power Generation
Windmill, Water Mill, Power Plants
0%-Mechanical Engineering(*5%)-40%-Mechanical Engineering(*30%), Chemistry-100%

Roads
Road, Cobbled Road, Paved Road, Highway
0%-None-20%-Brick/Cement/Stone-100%
Allows goods and people to be moved faster and more efficiently.

Space Travel
0%-Portable Power Generation(*85%), Physics-Mechanics(*85%), Electronics,-100%

Synthetics
Silicon Semiconductors, Composites
0%-Chemistry(*70%)-100%

Water Transport--Access to water
River Boat, Ships
0%-Woodworking(*20%)-50%-Metal Working(*40%)-100%
0%-Portable Power Generation-100%
Allows goods and people to be moved by river and sea.

Woodworking--Access to wood
0%-None-100%

That should cover everything, but I have a nagging feeling that I am missing something. If you see anything that needs to be added or changed, let me know.

[Richard Bruns]

I'm replying before i read more than your into so if this is answered in the
rest of the email just say so.

What do you mean by specific social isssues? Do u mean like the differnt
types of religions as they advance or things like abolishment of slavery or
what? Have you done anything with the social advances at all?

[Richard Bruns]

I meant things like abolishment of slavery. Things like that are single events, not continuously increasing processes. I couldn't think of anything I could do that would improve what you already have.

As for religions, I don't know what kind of template techs you wanted to include. I have some things for these, but as of now it is not as good as the current model.

[Richard Bruns]

For right now I’m sending you what I have corrected. For space and to make it a little easier I cropped off what wasn’t changed. This was just a quick review and by no means complete. Also the only thing I know you forgot offhand was Economics.

I also didn’t receive any specific techs (unless those were the ones listed below the basic techs)

I’m waiting for everything you’ve got before I publically post this update.

Biology (Organism Structure)
0%-None-50%-Optics(*20%)-80%-Computational Hardware (*70)r-100%

Chemistry-Alchemy
Chemistry
0%-Alchemy-20%-Mathematics (*1)-100%

Diplomacy (formerly Communication)
Helps with trading, diplomatic relations, and controlling your people.

Ecology
Ecology, Theory of Evolution, Greenhouse Theory
0%-Biology, Geology-100%
Decreases the environmental impact of your civ's actions.


Geology

Oil Drilling

0-Mathamatics-100%


Mathematics
Arithmetic, Algebra, Calculus, Statistics, Nonlinear Math, Zero

Physics: Mechanics-Theory of Physics

Ballistics, Theory of Gravity
0%-Mathamatics (*15)-100%

Air Travel
Balloons, Planes, Jets, Helicopters, Blimps

Brick/Cement/Stone (Not sure if ness)

Ceramics (Not sure if ness) I think we could get by with just glassworking

Communication Systems and Media
Aids the progress of all techs. Increases your ability to spread information. Also has the effect of making your population more culturally homogenized. Can also cause civil unrest do to easier access to information.


Computational Hardware
Abacus, Slide Rule, Analog Computer, Digital Computer, Supercomputer

Genetics
0%-Mathematics-30%-Biology(*70%), Computatiomal Hardware (*60%)-100%

Industrial Engineering/Management
0%-Economics-100%

Portable Power Generation
0%-Genetics-30%-Mechanical Engineering(*30%) Power Generation (*30), Chemistry-100%

Space Travel
0%-Portable Power Generation(*85%), Physics-Mechanics(*85%), Electronics, Air Travel (*20)-100%

Synthetics
Silicon Semiconductors, Composites, Plastic

Water Transport--Access to water

[Richard Bruns]

For right now I’m sending you what I have corrected. For space and to make it a little easier I cropped off what wasn’t changed. This was just a quick review and by no means complete. Also the only thing I know you forgot offhand was Economics.
---
I just realized that I had forgotten to add an important application tech:

Resource Gathering
Fishing, Mining, Oil Drilling
0%-Ecology and Geology-100%
Affects the ability of your civ to collect resources from the environment.
---
I also didn’t receive any specific techs (unless those were the ones listed below the basic techs)
---
The thing I have been working on for all this time was the elimination of seperate basic techs. I thought I had finally reduced it to only these continuous techs. Anything else depends only on these, like the Fission Power Plant example.
---
I’m waiting for everything you’ve got before I publically post this update.
---
I don't understand. What else did you need?
-------
Biology (Organism Structure)
0%-None-50%-Optics(*20%)-80%-Computational Hardware (*70)r-100%
---
You are right that the 80-100% addition is needed, but wouldn't Electronics be more suitable? That would also cover things like electron microscopes.
---
Chemistry-Alchemy
Chemistry
0%-Alchemy-20%-Mathematics (*1)-100%
---
I do not have alchemy as a seperate tech. It is simply a low level of Chemistry.
---
Diplomacy (formerly Communication)
Helps with trading, diplomatic relations, and controlling your people.
---
OK
---
Ecology
Ecology, Theory of Evolution, Greenhouse Theory
0%-Biology, Geology-100%
Decreases the environmental impact of your civ's actions.
---
Why does your knowledge of the internal structure of an organism affect yur knowledge of the way an ecosystem works?
---
Geology
Oil Drilling
0-Mathamatics-100%
---
My reasoning for combining Ecology and Geology that are both aspects of Planetary Science. This is the theoretical side of the field, and the application that I forgot to include was Resource Gathering. Sorry for the confusion. If you still think it would be better to split them, that would be fine.
---
Mathematics
Arithmetic, Algebra, Calculus, Statistics, Nonlinear Math, Zero
---
OK
---
Physics: Mechanics-Theory of Physics
Ballistics, Theory of Gravity
0%-Mathamatics (*15)-100%
---
OK, but don't forget that Mathematics already acts as a soft prerequisite for everything. Sorry I didn't explain that.
---
Air Travel
Balloons, Planes, Jets, Helicopters, Blimps
---
OK
---
Brick/Cement/Stone (Not sure if ness)
---
I thought you would need this for both Architecture and Roads. What else would determine the ability to make stone buildings and pave roads?
---
Ceramics (Not sure if ness) I think we could get by with just glassworking.
---
You are probably right.
---
Communication Systems and Media
Aids the progress of all techs. Increases your ability to spread information. Also has the effect of making your population more culturally homogenized. Can also cause civil unrest do to easier access to information.
---
That makes sense.
---
Computational Hardware
Abacus, Slide Rule, Analog Computer, Digital Computer, Supercomputer
---
OK
---
Genetics
0%-Mathematics-30%-Biology(*70%), Computatiomal Hardware (*60%)-100%
---
High level Biology already requires Computational Hardware (or Electronics). I tried to avoid redundant prerequisites like that. Also, Computer Software can be considered a soft prerequisite for all techs.
---
Industrial Engineering/Management
0%-Economics-100%
---
OK
---
Portable Power Generation
0%-Genetics-30%-Mechanical Engineering(*30%) Power Generation (*30), Chemistry-100%
---
The Power Generation 30% requirement is redundant. Power Generation already requires Mechanical Engineering and Chemistry, so you gain noting by adding it. If it is the specific percentage you are concerened with, we can always adjust it. These are rough estimates.
---
Space Travel
0%-Portable Power Generation(*85%), Physics-Mechanics(*85%), Electronics, Air Travel (*20)-100%
---
Air Travel 20% is like a World One biplane. How would you not have that if you already have the high requirements already there? But you are right in that Air Travel would help. It can be a non-prerequisite helper.
---
Synthetics
Silicon Semiconductors, Composites, Plastic
---
OK
---
Water Transport--Access to water
---
How is this different? Did something get cut off?

[Richard Bruns]

> The thing I have been working on for all this time was the elimination of
> seperate basic techs. I thought I had finally reduced it to only these
> continuous techs. Anything else depends only on these, like the Fission
> Power Plant example.

Um no what i meant was not seperate "basic" techs, but seperate techs that u
need certain percentage prereq on basic techs but because of there
revolutionary changes should be researched seperately that just getting to a
certain percentage.

> I don't understand. What else did you need?

Military Tech Model and anything you do happen to have on social advances

Also on the prereqs where they change as they advance FE water transport,
the affects should be gradual buildup. So its at 50% when you need metal
working from what the chart reads, well from 40-60% you could still research
it w/o metal working, but it would becaome increasingly difficult.

Also we need to decide how RP are produced and used since based on an
earlier e-mail i sent some will have to be used to keep the current level of
tech from eroding.

> Biology (Organism Structure)
> 0%-None-50%-Optics(*20%)-80%-Computational Hardware (*70)r-100%
> ---
> You are right that the 80-100% addition is needed, but wouldn't
Electronics
> be more suitable? That would also cover things like electron microscopes.
> ---
Perhaps

> Chemistry-Alchemy
> Chemistry
> 0%-Alchemy-20%-Mathematics (*1)-100%
> ---
> I do not have alchemy as a seperate tech. It is simply a low level of
> Chemistry.
> ---
Heres the reason why: Alchemy isn't chemisty. It's prechemisty. Alchemist
basically used trial and error for the most part to come up with formulas.

> Ecology
> Ecology, Theory of Evolution, Greenhouse Theory
> 0%-Biology, Geology-100%
> Decreases the environmental impact of your civ's actions.
> ---
> Why does your knowledge of the internal structure of an organism affect
yur
> knowledge of the way an ecosystem works?
> ---

Because it helps to determine how and why creatures act and live like they
do and also how they evolved.

> Geology
> Oil Drilling
> 0-Mathamatics-100%
> ---
> My reasoning for combining Ecology and Geology that are both aspects of
> Planetary Science. This is the theoretical side of the field, and the
> application that I forgot to include was Resource Gathering. Sorry for
the
> confusion. If you still think it would be better to split them, that
would
> be fine.
> ---

Geology deals with rocks, minerals, etc while Ecology deals with organisms
and their eviroments. While geology does affect ecology, it is not
exclusive and ecology really doesn't affect geology.

> Brick/Cement/Stone (Not sure if ness)
> ---
> I thought you would need this for both Architecture and Roads. What else
> would determine the ability to make stone buildings and pave roads?
> ---

I guess adding mortar and renaming it "Building Materials" or "Construction
Materials" will be fine.

> Portable Power Generation
> 0%-Genetics-30%-Mechanical Engineering(*30%) Power Generation (*30),
> Chemistry-100%
> ---
> The Power Generation 30% requirement is redundant. Power Generation
already
> requires Mechanical Engineering and Chemistry, so you gain noting by
adding
> it. If it is the specific percentage you are concerened with, we can
always
> adjust it. These are rough estimates.
> ---

Well thing was that Power Generation required the same level of mechanical
engineering which imo wasn't right since portable power generation requires
more advanced techniques.

> Space Travel
> 0%-Portable Power Generation(*85%), Physics-Mechanics(*85%), Electronics,
> Air Travel (*20)-100%
> ---
> Air Travel 20% is like a World One biplane. How would you not have that
if
> you already have the high requirements already there? But you are right
in
> that Air Travel would help. It can be a non-prerequisite helper.
> ---

Well um yes your right. I was thinking thinking it was about that time
rocketry came into being although it was WWII and there is some need for air
travel because you need to know how to travel through the atmosphere to get
into space.

> Water Transport--Access to water
> ---
> How is this different? Did something get cut off?

Um all I can remember is that there should be a way to tell the diff from
seaworthy ships to nonseaworthy ships.

[Richard Bruns]

Um no what i meant was not seperate "basic" techs, but seperate techs that u
need certain percentage prereq on basic techs but because of there
revolutionary changes should be researched seperately that just getting to a
certain percentage.
---
Could you give an example of one of these that would really be important for gameplay? I am trying to have as little complexity as possible. When my roommate saw me working on the tech model, he thought that it was ridiculously complex. And he is a very intellegent person who is good at computer strategy games.
We are trying to condense over 4000 years of the advancement of humanity into a tech model that is simple enough do deal with in a game. We will need to ignore literally hundreds of revolutionary advances. A few dozen general fields that progress over time is, in my mind, the only hope for modelling this. We have to be as simple and general as possible.
For example, consider the tech of Explosives. I considered adding it, but then decided not to. It is too small and it does not help much. I made the simplifying assumption that your skill in explosives would be the same as your Chemistry skill. Thus building cannons would require a certain percentage in Chemistry and Metallurgy, and your cannons would improve as those two techs did. A seperate tech for Explosives would only complicate the tech tree.
---
Military Tech Model and anything you do happen to have on social advances
---
After coming up with an elaborate system for military technology, I decided to scrap it. Rather than having a Personal Weapons tech, I thought it would be better to simply assign prerequisites and dependencies for individual applications. Thus your artillery depends on Metalurgy, Chemistry, and to a lesser extent Physics(Mechanics). Rather than clutter up the tech tree with techs that have only one application, I thought it would be better to trim the tree to the essentials and have individual applications depend on those essentials.
I say keep the social tree you already have; you did a good job. Only use non culture specific techs like we talked about earlier.
---
Also on the prereqs where they change as they advance FE water transport,
the affects should be gradual buildup. So its at 50% when you need metal
working from what the chart reads, well from 40-60% you could still research
it w/o metal working, but it would becaome increasingly difficult.
---
I had the same view of things, but I forgot to explain it. Sorry. You are right about the gradual crossover.
---
Also we need to decide how RP are produced and used since based on an
earlier e-mail i sent some will have to be used to keep the current level of
tech from eroding.
---
I thought that was already decided. I liked the idea of having to spend RP's based on the level of the tech. As you learn more, you have to increase the effort to increase your knowledge to things that are harder to learn. Also, you have to constantly spend RP's to keep techs at their current level. This too is based on tech.
So we have a differential equation of the form dP=(RP-a(bP^n))(c/(dP)^m) where a, b, c, d, n, and m are constants, P is the current percentage and RP is the amount of RP's spent on that tech.
If RP is zero, the tech declines at a rate proportional to the level of the tech. If RP=xP, there is no growth. You can see that the input required to keep the tech level constant increases as the tech does, to simulate the greater amount of teaching required. In between these two, the decline is less rapid but still present. If the first term is greater than zero, then the tech rises, but the rate of the rise slows as the tech level inreases.
Does that sound okay? The numbers will have to be determined by playtesting.
---
Heres the reason why: Alchemy isn't chemisty. It's prechemisty. Alchemist
basically used trial and error for the most part to come up with formulas.
---
For the purposes of the tech tree, Chemistry is anything that involves experimenting with chemicals and learning about them. Chemistry and Alchemy are similar enought to lump into only one tech.
---
Because it helps to determine how and why creatures act and live like they
do and also how they evolved.
---
OK
---
Geology deals with rocks, minerals, etc while Ecology deals with organisms
and their eviroments. While geology does affect ecology, it is not
exclusive and ecology really doesn't affect geology.
---
OK
---
I guess adding mortar and renaming it "Building Materials" or "Construction
Materials" will be fine.
---
There are other building materials like metal that have nothing do do with this tech. Also paving and roads, as well as construction, are a big application of this tech. I would prefer that names be as accurate and descriptive as possible, even if they don't sound good. But adding mortar is a good idea.
---
Well thing was that Power Generation required the same level of mechanical
engineering which imo wasn't right since portable power generation requires
more advanced techniques.
---
You are right. But wouldn't it be easier and less confusing to make the Portable require a higher level of the existing prerequisites, rather than adding new prerequisites?
---
Um all I can remember is that there should be a way to tell the diff from
seaworthy ships to nonseaworthy ships.
---
Simple. A ship requires a higher percentage as a prerequisite than a river boat does.

[Richard Bruns]

Um you havent said anything on future techs.

> Um no what i meant was not seperate "basic" techs, but seperate techs that
u
> need certain percentage prereq on basic techs but because of there
> revolutionary changes should be researched seperately that just getting to
a
> certain percentage.
> ---
> Could you give an example of one of these that would really be important
> for gameplay? I am trying to have as little complexity as possible. When
> my roommate saw me working on the tech model, he thought that it was
> ridiculously complex. And he is a very intellegent person who is good at
> computer strategy games.
> We are trying to condense over 4000 years of the advancement of humanity
> into a tech model that is simple enough do deal with in a game. We will
> need to ignore literally hundreds of revolutionary advances. A few dozen
> general fields that progress over time is, in my mind, the only hope for
> modelling this. We have to be as simple and general as possible.
> For example, consider the tech of Explosives. I considered adding it,
but
> then decided not to. It is too small and it does not help much. I made
> the simplifying assumption that your skill in explosives would be the same
> as your Chemistry skill. Thus building cannons would require a certain
> percentage in Chemistry and Metallurgy, and your cannons would improve as
> those two techs did. A seperate tech for Explosives would only complicate
> the tech tree.

I'm talking very major ones like industrialization. This had a profuound
inpact on almost every aspect of society. I'm trying to find a book or
article with the top 100 or something advances in our history and then take
a select few from that. Besides from whats been said on the forum and such
esp Mark, he wants a combination of both with about 60 techs seperate from
just being able to be obtained cuz you reached a certain level. 20 of which
would be future techs.

We also don't want it be too simple.

> Military Tech Model and anything you do happen to have on social advances
> ---
> After coming up with an elaborate system for military technology, I
> decided to scrap it. Rather than having a Personal Weapons tech, I
thought
> it would be better to simply assign prerequisites and dependencies for
> individual applications. Thus your artillery depends on Metalurgy,
> Chemistry, and to a lesser extent Physics(Mechanics). Rather than clutter
> up the tech tree with techs that have only one application, I thought it
> would be better to trim the tree to the essentials and have individual
> applications depend on those essentials.
> I say keep the social tree you already have; you did a good job. Only
use
> non culture specific techs like we talked about earlier.

What about the stuff such as indivisual weapons like katana or rifle? From
what the military model suggests they are relying heavily on the abilty to
"personalise" units. I know these wouldn't ness be tech advancements but
more of improv or items obtained from the current tech which brings me to
the point of what do you have in that area?

> Also we need to decide how RP are produced and used since based on an
> earlier e-mail i sent some will have to be used to keep the current level
of
> tech from eroding.
> ---
> I thought that was already decided. I liked the idea of having to spend
> RP's based on the level of the tech. As you learn more, you have to
> increase the effort to increase your knowledge to things that are harder
to
> learn. Also, you have to constantly spend RP's to keep techs at their
> current level. This too is based on tech.
> So we have a differential equation of the form dP=(RP-a(bP^n))(c/(dP)^m)
> where a, b, c, d, n, and m are constants, P is the current percentage and
RP
> is the amount of RP's spent on that tech.
> If RP is zero, the tech declines at a rate proportional to the level of
> the tech. If RP=xP, there is no growth. You can see that the input
> required to keep the tech level constant increases as the tech does, to
> simulate the greater amount of teaching required. In between these two,
the
> decline is less rapid but still present. If the first term is greater
than
> zero, then the tech rises, but the rate of the rise slows as the tech
level
> inreases.
> Does that sound okay? The numbers will have to be determined by
> playtesting.

Yea but also if the amount of RP spent is more than enough to raise it a
percentage is should be carried over to the next to see if can raise it more
than 1. If not the excess could act as a cushon for the next turn.

> I guess adding mortar and renaming it "Building Materials" or
"Construction
> Materials" will be fine.
> ---
> There are other building materials like metal that have nothing do do with
> this tech. Also paving and roads, as well as construction, are a big
> application of this tech. I would prefer that names be as accurate and
> descriptive as possible, even if they don't sound good. But adding mortar
> is a good idea.

well for coding thats fine, but it needs a better name for the user
interface

> Well thing was that Power Generation required the same level of mechanical
> engineering which imo wasn't right since portable power generation
requires
> more advanced techniques.
> ---
> You are right. But wouldn't it be easier and less confusing to make the
> Portable require a higher level of the existing prerequisites, rather than
> adding new prerequisites?

But then what's to say someone won't develope power gen b4 portable power
gen

[Richard Bruns]

Um you havent said anything on future techs.
---
All future techs are simply higher percentages of current basic techs. As for specific things like Cybernetic Medicine, I can create a list of prerequisites for what we decide to include.
---
I'm talking very major ones like industrialization. This had a profuound
inpact on almost every aspect of society. I'm trying to find a book or
article with the top 100 or something advances in our history and then take
a select few from that. Besides from whats been said on the forum and such
esp Mark, he wants a combination of both with about 60 techs seperate from
just being able to be obtained cuz you reached a certain level. 20 of which
would be future techs.

We also don't want it be too simple.
---
Quote from my original e-mail:
"Specific applications have percent prerequisites in one or more techs, as well as other possible requirements. For example, a Fission Power Plant would need something around Power Generation 60%, Chemistry 80%, Physics-Electromagnetics 70%, and Access to Uranium. The exact percentages will have to be determined by playtesting. Until then, I could guess at whatever you wanted to build. Send me a list of what you want included and I will make a list of tech prerequisites for that thing."

Industrialization is a specific application, not a tech. It is a social choice made possible by certain levels of technology. I would say Industrial Engineering 30%, Communication Systems and Media 40%, Civil Engineering/Infrastructure 40%, and Power Generation 40%. Once you get these levels of tech, you have the option of choosing Industrialization. Either that or your people do it automatically; I don't know what the social model people will eventually decide on.

I think that the tech tree should only contain broad categories of knowledge or skills that affect many things. Any specific application is a single thing that has certain prerequisites. Just send me a list of these specific things and I will give them prerequisites. I don't yet know exactly what you want.

And this tree is not too simple. It is already quite complex.
---
What about the stuff such as indivisual weapons like katana or rifle? From
what the military model suggests they are relying heavily on the abilty to
"personalise" units. I know these wouldn't ness be tech advancements but
more of improv or items obtained from the current tech which brings me to
the point of what do you have in that area?
---
Leather Armor: Fabric/Leather *10%
Curballi: Fabric/Leather *20%, Metalworking *10%
Mail Armor: Metalworking *25%
Plate Armor: Metalworking *40%, Mechanical Engineering
Spear: Woodworking *2%, Metalworking
Sword: Metalworking *20%
Longsword: Metalworking *35%
Katana: Metalworking *60%
Bow: Woodworking *5%
Composite Bow: Chemistry *15%
Crossbow: Mechanical Engineering *25%
Musket: Chemistry *30%, Metalworking *30%
Rifle: Chemistry *40%, Metalworking *40%, Physics(Mechanics) *30%
Hand Grenades: Chemistry 40%
I am confident that anything we need can be placed in my tech tree like this. Just send me lists of what to include. Again, the percentages are approximate. They will most likely have to be adjusted for game balance.
---
Yea but also if the amount of RP spent is more than enough to raise it a
percentage is should be carried over to the next to see if can raise it more
than 1. If not the excess could act as a cushon for the next turn.
---
I don't see why we have to confine ourselves to integers. If you have, say, 32% one turn and you research a little, you get 32.17% the next turn. If you then put a huge investment into the tech, you can raise it to 33.59% by the next turn. The percentages are recalculated every turn and an exact value dispayed.
---
well for coding thats fine, but it needs a better name for the user
interface
---
I knew that all along. But the name should tell exactly what it is.
---
But then what's to say someone won't develope power gen b4 portable power
gen
---
What's wrong with that? The steam engine was running factories before it powered railroads. Electric turbines were around before cars.
As a general strategy, we can set the timing of things by setting the prerequisite percentage. Something that needs Metalworking 30% will probably come before something that needs Metalworking 50%. But if the players do not need to research the 30% thing, then they don't have to. We may see that in our history the 50% thing developed as a result of the 30% thing, but it did not have to be that way. At the most basic level, it was the result of societal need and the ability to make it. The players choose the need, and the tech tree provides the basic tools. I don't want to lock people too tightly in our history. They should be able to choose their own technological destiny, within reason. That is one reason I want to keep the tech tree loose and flexible.

[Richard Bruns]

First off before I reply to your other questions I seen nothing i medicine
that reflects the eastern or native american approach to this basic tech:
***
Medicine
Medicines, Surgery, Vaccine, Artificial Limb
0%-No Prerequisite-10%-Biology(*10%)-80%-Genetics(*80%)-100%
0%-Biology-100%
Higher levels make people live longer and be healthier and happier
***
Is this a mistake, intentional or are you modeling some other way? The
reason is, is because if we are going to have this non-biased to one
cultural type or another as much as humanly possible, which is one thing I
won't comprime on, this represnts mainly a western philosophy.

All future techs are simply higher percentages of current basic techs. As
for specific things like Cybernetic Medicine, I can create a list of
prerequisites for what we decide to include.

I think that the tech tree should only contain broad categories of knowledge
or skills that affect many things. Any specific application is a single
thing that has certain prerequisites. Just send me a list of these specific
things and I will give them prerequisites. I don't yet know exactly what
you want.
---
I'll prob do that tommorrow or Friday once i review what's here and what is
in the tech model i gave u.


What about the stuff such as indivisual weapons like katana or rifle? From
what the military model suggests they are relying heavily on the abilty to
"personalise" units. I know these wouldn't ness be tech advancements but
more of improv or items obtained from the current tech which brings me to
the point of what do you have in that area?
---
Leather Armor: Fabric/Leather *10%
Curballi: Fabric/Leather *20%, Metalworking *10%
Mail Armor: Metalworking *25%
Plate Armor: Metalworking *40%, Mechanical Engineering
Spear: Woodworking *2%, Metalworking
Sword: Metalworking *20%
Longsword: Metalworking *35%
Katana: Metalworking *60%
Bow: Woodworking *5%
Composite Bow: Chemistry *15%
Crossbow: Mechanical Engineering *25%
Musket: Chemistry *30%, Metalworking *30%
Rifle: Chemistry *40%, Metalworking *40%, Physics(Mechanics) *30%
Hand Grenades: Chemistry 40%
I am confident that anything we need can be placed in my tech tree like
this. Just send me lists of what to include. Again, the percentages are
approximate. They will most likely have to be adjusted for game balance.
---

I have no argument with that last statement and i fact think it should,
again the exact percentages/techs may vary. In general if you can think of
something that isn't a tech advancement or social advancement but is
important, it prob belongs in this category. FE automobiles do, but
automotive technology or whatever u think it should be called wouldn't fit
there.

Again with that I'll try and have some ideas for you when i send what i can
compile with the rest of the stuff. You will prob haveto do a lot with the
more currect militay items/improvements since i know more about the older
military battling systems.

I don't see why we have to confine ourselves to integers. If you have, say,
32% one turn and you research a little, you get 32.17% the next turn. If
you then put a huge investment into the tech, you can raise it to 33.59% by
the next turn. The percentages are recalculated every turn and an exact
value dispayed.

That's fine, but we still have to have an end point i mean otherwise we
could end up with an intiger that never ends (6.66666...). Also if we do
use intigers we might want to do a little more tweaking with the model later
on. FE having a requirement at 29.3 or something. Again don't worry right
now that's for play testing.

well for coding thats fine, but it needs a better name for the user
interface
---
I knew that all along. But the name should tell exactly what it is.

And "Construction Materials" doesn't how? I know you mentioned the fact
that this doesn't include metal constuction materials (as well as wood) but
can you think of a better name?

What's wrong with that? The steam engine was running factories before it
powered railroads. Electric turbines were around before cars.
As a general strategy, we can set the timing of things by setting the
prerequisite percentage. Something that needs Metalworking 30% will
probably come before something that needs Metalworking 50%. But if the
players do not need to research the 30% thing, then they don't have to. We
may see that in our history the 50% thing developed as a result of the 30%
thing, but it did not have to be that way. At the most basic level, it was
the result of societal need and the ability to make it. The players choose
the need, and the tech tree provides the basic tools. I don't want to lock
people too tightly in our history. They should be able to choose their own
technological destiny, within reason. That is one reason I want to keep the
tech tree loose and flexible.
---
Again, the barriers of language come into play *O* I thought u meant
portable as in the laptop computer vs a desktop computer.

Oh! I forgot you don't have gunpowder in there that i could see, unless its
in the military part which it shouldn't be atleast to begin with since its
first uses were for fireworks.
---
That one was another one I left out intentionally. Any use of explosives
can be traced directly back to your Chemistry level. It is not entirely
accurate, but it works.

Yes, yes. But gunpowder is a major discovery, not up there with agriculture
or the wheel, but definatly moreso than something like copper working and
many others.