Technology System E-Mail Archive

[Richard Bruns]

Ok I'll wait and see when its done...Any idea since i know this is really my
last week as to when that might be the case?
---
I hadn't planned on changing the social model. I am working with the tech tree. I was just trying to say that my changes to the tree would not really change the social model.
---
Actually, no, not really before Christinaity most of Europe was either
Greeko-Roman or Germanic-like. Same was true for arabia and Islam.
---
I don't understand what you are saying. I already had planned on Northern European (Germanic) and Southern European (Greco-Roman). Both of these became Christian, just as arabs bacame Moslems.
---
If u've lived in one side of the US and the other you'll see a drastic diff.
In the way people live. Out in the west, cept along coast, people are much
more spread out and have diff values in many places which go against
enviroemental ways also. In the east there are many more cities and roads
and the lifestyle is completely diff.
---
I am not talking about ANY of that stuff. I am only concerned with general things like military units, architectural styles, and cultural trends that last for centuries. You are talking about social model stuff, the temporary attitudes of the people.
---
Art is the same basically. Religion for modern day China/Japan isn't. Its
almost compeletly diff as can be. China is still rooted very much to its
old ways cept for Christianity and Japan has embraced secularism and ways of
US cept for Christianity and Islam. They still have things like Christmas
(secular reason) and some psudeo-Christian/Shintoism type religions, but its
not the same (2% total pop.) so in terms of modern day Japan is both a
western and eastern country which is why it needs its own i think for modern
times, maybe not ancient.
---
My model is meant to handle the early part of the tech tree, before globalization started to mix cultures a lot. I simply wanted to avoid forcing a culture to research, for example, both Chivalry and Way of the blade.
---
Then again Japan was the only country to have
samari and ninja types. China, Korea, Mongolia, etc didn't.
---
Is it possible to assume that China just never went into that part of the tech tree, or did they have something different that did the same thing? I think it would be reasonable to say that they are the same culture but the Japanese developed this tech while the Chinese did not.
---
0% in my terms would be the very basic knowledge of what is ness to know
that basic tech. 100% would be double basic knowledge. It won't appear
until u've got the related techs ness to develope them so ur right when u
say a lot of things will be at 0%, but they will not even show up as
possible so in essence its like saying there at -1% or something. I'm
assuming for urs 100% is equal to modern times since 1% is ness for any
implimentation.
---
The word zero means nothing. If you know more than nothing you know more than zero. I don't think players would like to put effort into research, be told that they discovered something, and then see that they are at level zero.
---
EM propulsion is vastly diff. It uses a whole different way of keeping
above ground, propelling and movement. Proppeller like craft keep
themselves up by esentially trying to lighten themselves by wind currents so
they can take off and keep them spinning to continue movement. EM
propulsion uses the eletro-magnetic spectrum to "charge" the craft with
energy which can repel it off of the surface like opposite magnets. The
charge has to be maintained, but the way its done is so fundamentally diff
than any other way we've tried to fly.
---
Instead if thinking about the results and applications of something, you are concentrating on how something works. EM crafts may work very differently, but in the end that do the same thing helicopters do. They are powered, heavier than air craft capable of hovering for extended periods of time. Sure they are better and different, but they basically do the same thing.
---
Ok well remember that things like iron and copper working still have to have
access to appropraite materials before they can be discovered at all.
---
OK

PS The cultures I listed were meant to be both ancient and medieval, and in fact are almost the same as your list for modern cultures.

[Richard Bruns]

> Ok I'll wait and see when its done...Any idea since i know this is really
my
> last week as to when that might be the case?
> ---
> I hadn't planned on changing the social model. I am working with the tech
> tree. I was just trying to say that my changes to the tree would not
really
> change the social model.

Never said to. Just wanted to make sure u were aware of what was in it and
have been keeping up to date with it. And I guess u don't have an answer to
my second question?

> Actually, no, not really before Christinaity most of Europe was either
> Greeko-Roman or Germanic-like. Same was true for arabia and Islam.
> ---
> I don't understand what you are saying. I already had planned on Northern
> European (Germanic) and Southern European (Greco-Roman). Both of these
> became Christian, just as arabs bacame Moslems.

Art style for example was completly diff in pre-islamic. Islamics can't
paint/sculpt anything that's of God so they couldn't really do anything
artwise cept buildings and with their writing (which is it is considered one
of the most artistic in the world). Before this there were no real
constraints. Similar things happened when Chrisitianity came into being in
Europe, though not quite as drastic. Mainly most of the artwork had to be
of religious nature or it couldn't be done at all.

> If u've lived in one side of the US and the other you'll see a drastic
diff.
> In the way people live. Out in the west, cept along coast, people are
much
> more spread out and have diff values in many places which go against
> enviroemental ways also. In the east there are many more cities and roads
> and the lifestyle is completely diff.
> ---
> I am not talking about ANY of that stuff. I am only concerned with
general
> things like military units, architectural styles, and cultural trends that
> last for centuries. You are talking about social model stuff, the
temporary
> attitudes of the people.

Cultural trends vary but the rest is prob the same.

> Art is the same basically. Religion for modern day China/Japan isn't.
Its
> almost compeletly diff as can be. China is still rooted very much to its
> old ways cept for Christianity and Japan has embraced secularism and ways
of
> US cept for Christianity and Islam. They still have things like Christmas
> (secular reason) and some psudeo-Christian/Shintoism type religions, but
its
> not the same (2% total pop.) so in terms of modern day Japan is both a
> western and eastern country which is why it needs its own i think for
modern
> times, maybe not ancient.
> ---
> My model is meant to handle the early part of the tech tree, before
> globalization started to mix cultures a lot. I simply wanted to avoid
> forcing a culture to research, for example, both Chivalry and Way of the
> blade.

Ok well that's fine in early times, though you might consider something
inbetween. Doesn't have to be right now since we can see how it goes. But
for modern times its almost inevitable that that be so.

> Then again Japan was the only country to have
> samari and ninja types. China, Korea, Mongolia, etc didn't.
> ---
> Is it possible to assume that China just never went into that part of the
> tech tree, or did they have something different that did the same thing?
I
> think it would be reasonable to say that they are the same culture but the
> Japanese developed this tech while the Chinese did not.

China had a feudalistic time period, but it was quite short and so didn't
have time for such. Mongol warriors were prob similar to samari though.
Don't quote me but i don't think they had any really truly samari type
warriors for China. The closest i can think of would be the guards for the
emperor and his advisors.

> 0% in my terms would be the very basic knowledge of what is ness to know
> that basic tech. 100% would be double basic knowledge. It won't appear
> until u've got the related techs ness to develope them so ur right when u
> say a lot of things will be at 0%, but they will not even show up as
> possible so in essence its like saying there at -1% or something. I'm
> assuming for urs 100% is equal to modern times since 1% is ness for any
> implimentation.
> ---
> The word zero means nothing. If you know more than nothing you know more
> than zero. I don't think players would like to put effort into research,
be
> told that they discovered something, and then see that they are at level
> zero.

Well we can replace 0 with a more euphaistic thing like "Basic"

> EM propulsion is vastly diff. It uses a whole different way of keeping
> above ground, propelling and movement. Proppeller like craft keep
> themselves up by esentially trying to lighten themselves by wind currents
so
> they can take off and keep them spinning to continue movement. EM
> propulsion uses the eletro-magnetic spectrum to "charge" the craft with
> energy which can repel it off of the surface like opposite magnets. The
> charge has to be maintained, but the way its done is so fundamentally diff
> than any other way we've tried to fly.
> ---
> Instead if thinking about the results and applications of something, you
are
> concentrating on how something works. EM crafts may work very
differently,
> but in the end that do the same thing helicopters do. They are powered,
> heavier than air craft capable of hovering for extended periods of time.
> Sure they are better and different, but they basically do the same thing.

In some ways yes, but i think they should have their own section also. We
can always get rid of it if it turns out to be unness. It would prob be
easier than adding it later if need be.

> PS The cultures I listed were meant to be both ancient and medieval, and
in
> fact are almost the same as your list for modern cultures.


Yea, but a few have changed like china/japan have seperated moreso do to
WWII and some cultures have ceased to exist for all intese purposes, such as
Native American Tribes.

[Richard Bruns]

Never said to. Just wanted to make sure u were aware of what was in it and
have been keeping up to date with it. And I guess u don't have an answer to
my second question?
---
Crunch time here at school is almost over; i will be able to finalize things shortly. I'll definitely be done before Christmas.
---
Art style for example was completly diff in pre-islamic. Islamics can't
paint/sculpt anything that's of God so they couldn't really do anything
artwise cept buildings and with their writing (which is it is considered one
of the most artistic in the world). Before this there were no real
constraints. Similar things happened when Chrisitianity came into being in
Europe, though not quite as drastic. Mainly most of the artwork had to be
of religious nature or it couldn't be done at all.
---
Buildings are the main thing I was talking about. The player won't see art galleries or anything; they see the buildings their people make. I just want to see pagodas in an Oriental city and cathedrals in a Eurpean city, rather than the same thing for everyone like civ had.
---
Well we can replace 0 with a more euphaistic thing like "Basic"
---
OK, but I thought you didn't like words like Basic or Advanced.
---
In some ways yes, but i think they should have their own section also. We
can always get rid of it if it turns out to be unness. It would prob be
easier than adding it later if need be.
---
I'll add a basic tech called EM propulsion. You can't get far beyond Hover flight 130% if you don't have it, and it is also a soft prerequisite for high levels of Space Flight and Powered Flight.
---
Yea, but a few have changed like china/japan have seperated moreso do to
WWII and some cultures have ceased to exist for all intese purposes, such as
Native American Tribes.
---
Of course cultures get wiped out. But I think it would be fun to try to play a Native American people and try to make them the dominant culture on the planet.

[Richard Bruns]

> Art style for example was completly diff in pre-islamic. Islamics can't
> paint/sculpt anything that's of God so they couldn't really do anything
> artwise cept buildings and with their writing (which is it is considered
one
> of the most artistic in the world). Before this there were no real
> constraints. Similar things happened when Chrisitianity came into being
in
> Europe, though not quite as drastic. Mainly most of the artwork had to be
> of religious nature or it couldn't be done at all.
> ---
> Buildings are the main thing I was talking about. The player won't see
art
> galleries or anything; they see the buildings their people make. I just
> want to see pagodas in an Oriental city and cathedrals in a Eurpean city,
> rather than the same thing for everyone like civ had.

Hmm I might do some research on there architecture if i have time.

> Well we can replace 0 with a more euphaistic thing like "Basic"
> ---
> OK, but I thought you didn't like words like Basic or Advanced.

Only when refering to they level of various techs such as basic flight and
advanced flight.

> In some ways yes, but i think they should have their own section also. We
> can always get rid of it if it turns out to be unness. It would prob be
> easier than adding it later if need be.
> ---
> I'll add a basic tech called EM propulsion. You can't get far beyond
Hover
> flight 130% if you don't have it, and it is also a soft prerequisite for
> high levels of Space Flight and Powered Flight.

OK

> Yea, but a few have changed like china/japan have seperated moreso do to
> WWII and some cultures have ceased to exist for all intese purposes, such
as
> Native American Tribes.
> ---
> Of course cultures get wiped out. But I think it would be fun to try to
> play a Native American people and try to make them the dominant culture on
> the planet.

Yea, but the thing is we have no way of knowning how'd they're culture would
evolve in medevil/modern types so we'd haveto use another graphics from
another culture.

[Richard Bruns]

Hmm I might do some research on there architecture if i have time.
---
Just enough to get the right pictures for various structures.
---
Yea, but the thing is we have no way of knowning how'd they're culture would
evolve in medevil/modern types so we'd haveto use another graphics from
another culture.
---
I think that we can make some fairly good guesses about what the buildings would look like. For example, most North American natives would keep using wood, but the buildings would get larger and more advanced. South American cultures would keep using stone, but as they developed better tech they would learn to carve stone better and the buildings would improve. But by modern times, things would start to look the same.

[Richard Bruns]

Listen I was thinking of a good way to show the decrease in techs do to not over time do to not keeping of with teaching them to future gen. and here's what I have come up with:

Each basic tech requires 1 point per percentage (multiplied by cultural acceptance factor) to keep at the current level, anything above it put into reaseaching better technology for that basic tech, This only affects basic techs, however, if it goes below what is required for something to be discovered, then it should be lost, including if it is needed to be seperatly researched off the tech chart.

[Richard Bruns]

Sounds like a great solution. It is workable, easy to understand, and accurate to the real world. But there is one concern. I was planning on having a certain percentage of a basic tech be a prerequisite for others, for example Mechanics 60% is needed for Powered Flight. If the Mechanics percentage fell below that, what would happen to Powered Flight? Would it disappear, or just fall at a faster rate?
Also, doing something should be taken into consideration. If you are building a huge fleet of airplanes, it should be harder for the tech to fall. Perhaps the player could get RP's for constructing things. This would be realistic and accurate, but there is the possibility of the player finding a way to abuse it.

[Richard Bruns]

> Sounds like a great solution. It is workable, easy to understand, and
> accurate to the real world. But there is one concern. I was planning on
> having a certain percentage of a basic tech be a prerequisite for others,
> for example Mechanics 60% is needed for Powered Flight. If the Mechanics
> percentage fell below that, what would happen to Powered Flight? Would it
> disappear, or just fall at a faster rate?

U wouldn't loose powered flight, but couldn't andvance in it and would begin
to loose slowly up until u got to mechanics 55% or 60% at which time it
would be completly forgotten since ur people just don't understand enough
basic mechanics to work with powered flight. Also anything currently built
will still be around, but might degrade over time from lack of understanding
of matinence. It prob wouldn't go away quickly and could still be used for
a while unless mechanics went waaaay down.

> Also, doing something should be taken into consideration. If you are
> building a huge fleet of airplanes, it should be harder for the tech to
> fall. Perhaps the player could get RP's for constructing things. This
> would be realistic and accurate, but there is the possibility of the
player
> finding a way to abuse it.

That should be handled with the cultural modifiers, FE it'd be pretty hard
to build that huge fleet in the first place if ur people were totally
against it.

[Richard Bruns]

That should be handled with the cultural modifiers, FE it'd be pretty hard
to build that huge fleet in the first place if ur people were totally
against it.

I was thinking of the military buildup in World War 2. If your country is in danger or is being attacked, your people should be more willing to fight. I hated that in Civ2 in a Democracy someone could sneak attack you and force a peace treaty before you could retaliate.

[Richard Bruns]

Sorry to bother u, just seeing if there's anything i can review since its almost xmas

BTW Happy Chrsitmas!

[Richard Bruns]

There are a few paralyzing concerns with the tech tree that I need to deal with before I can do more. I'm really sorry I didn't let you know about these sooner; I've been a lot busier than I thought I would be. I need to know about the following, most of which are prerequisite problems:

Flight can be reached in only three steps: Wheel, Mechanics, Flight. What am I missing?

Aeroelectric Power can be obtained too early as well: Wheel, Mechanics, Wind Mill, Machinery, Areoelectric Power. Was it assumed that electric power is another prerequisite for this? I don't want to add prerequisites without permission.

Telegraph, Light Bulb, Supercomputer and Microelectronics have no prerequisites.

A few less important concerns:

Atomic Theory has soft prerequisites of Microscope and Computer. It seems to me that microscopes are useless for this, as they give no clue about atomic properties. They used cyclotrons and CRT's, among other things, to find the properties of matter. Also, It seems that Atomic Theory should be a prerequisite for electronics and computers, not the other way around.

There are many redundant prerequisites. For example, Windmill requires Machinery and Wheel, but Wheel is already a prerequisite for Machinery.
---
As far as something to review, here is the military model I have. The list is basic techs followed by what happens at specific percentages, which percentages will probably need to be refined. Any techs listed will, of course, also have to be discovered before that percentage can be reached, But they are considered a soft prerequisite. It might also be possible to skip steps, but we should be careful about that.

'Influenced By X' means that that tech X is a soft prerequisite for the tech, and will also speed up the tech research if it is at a high level. Gunpowder is assumed to influence anything that needs it.

Personal Armor: 0-10% leather/wood/reeds, 10-20% Curballi, 20-30% Bronze, 30-40% Iron, 40-60% Steel, 60-100% Composites (i.e. Kevlar, but I think we should avoid brand names.) From 0-60% this is influenced by Metallurgy, then after 60% the Synthetics percentage increases your research speed.

Personal Melee Weapons: A simple 0-100% scale with no gradients except culture specific stuff like Katana, Influenced by metallurgy skill.

Personal Missile Weapons: 0-10% spear/rock/dart, 10-30% advanced spear/simple bow/atl-atl/sling, 30-40% composite bow/longbow/really primitive gun, 40-60% guns, 60-80% rifles, 80-100% automatic weapons

Artillery: 0-30% Catapult/Ballista/Trebuchet, 30-60% cannon, 60-100% modern artillery Influenced by Mechanics

Non-Infantry or Mobile Units (Name Suggestion Needed): 0-10% battlewagon, 10-20%: chariot, 20-60% horsemen/cavalry, 60-100% armor
Influeaced by Breeding and the three Personal military techs until 60%, then Mechanics and Artillery after 60%.

Lighter than Air Flight: 0-40% balloons, 40-100% zepplin/blimp

Powered Flight: 0-20 planes, 20-40 monoplanes, 40-90 jets, 90-100 stealth

Hover Flight: 0-120% Helicopters, 120%+ EM Hovercraft
---
Again, sorry I haven't done more. I've been in over my head lately.

[Richard Bruns]

> There are a few paralyzing concerns with the tech tree that I need to deal
> with before I can do more. I'm really sorry I didn't let you know about
> these sooner; I've been a lot busier than I thought I would be. I need to
> know about the following, most of which are prerequisite problems:
>
> Flight can be reached in only three steps: Wheel, Mechanics, Flight. What
> am I missing?

Are u talking about planes and such or ballons and hang gliders? I know for
either a basic understanding of how birds use their wings...lets see...if
its just hang glider and balloon the wheel wouldn't be ness. Also the
theory of gravity might also come in handy or atleast a high physics level.

> Aeroelectric Power can be obtained too early as well: Wheel, Mechanics,
Wind
> Mill, Machinery, Areoelectric Power. Was it assumed that electric power
is
> another prerequisite for this? I don't want to add prerequisites without
> permission.

Yea, of some level or another.

> Telegraph, Light Bulb, Supercomputer and Microelectronics have no
> prerequisites.

All these had some level of electronics basic tech rq...supercomputer and
microelectronics um also have computer basic tech of high level for
development.

> A few less important concerns:
>
> Atomic Theory has soft prerequisites of Microscope and Computer. It seems
> to me that microscopes are useless for this, as they give no clue about
> atomic properties. They used cyclotrons and CRT's, among other things, to
> find the properties of matter. Also, It seems that Atomic Theory should
be
> a prerequisite for electronics and computers, not the other way around.

Um well maybe neither as far as the last prereqs go, just high math and
physics for atomic theory then, but for development of anything beyond just
the theory electronics and some degree of computer tech is ness.

> There are many redundant prerequisites. For example, Windmill requires
> Machinery and Wheel, but Wheel is already a prerequisite for Machinery.

Yea i tried to get rid of most of them. Makse sure some weren't "soft"
prereqs as apposed to ness prereqs.

> As far as something to review, here is the military model I have. The
list
> is basic techs followed by what happens at specific percentages, which
> percentages will probably need to be refined. Any techs listed will, of
> course, also have to be discovered before that percentage can be reached,
> But they are considered a soft prerequisite. It might also be possible to
> skip steps, but we should be careful about that.
>
> 'Influenced By X' means that that tech X is a soft prerequisite for the
> tech, and will also speed up the tech research if it is at a high level.
> Gunpowder is assumed to influence anything that needs it.
>
> Personal Armor: 0-10% leather/wood/reeds, 10-20% Curballi, 20-30% Bronze,
> 30-40% Iron, 40-60% Steel, 60-100% Composites (i.e. Kevlar, but I think we
> should avoid brand names.) From 0-60% this is influenced by Metallurgy,
> then after 60% the Synthetics percentage increases your research speed.

Note that if we use any metals that civ must have access through mines or
trade of them otherwise they will skip those techs. This is one thing i'm
pretty adamant on sticking with since i seen it as a glaring oversight in
the civ games that all civs develope copper working, iron working, etc, when
there might not be any in there area to work with.

> Personal Melee Weapons: A simple 0-100% scale with no gradients except
> culture specific stuff like Katana, Influenced by metallurgy skill.

Ok well this should also have something to do with local resources as far as
a few go. FE a katana can't be created w/o iron and steel working (or
rather steel working since steel requires iron)

> Personal Missile Weapons: 0-10% spear/rock/dart, 10-30% advanced
> spear/simple bow/atl-atl/sling, 30-40% composite bow/longbow/really
> primitive gun, 40-60% guns, 60-80% rifles, 80-100% automatic weapons

Again should be culture specific (ie shuriken). Also crossbows came before
primitive guns, but after composite bows. As far as guns and rifles
go...isn't it usually the other way around since its easier to get better
range and accurancy from longer barrels and such which is why the first guns
made were rifles.

> Artillery: 0-30% Catapult/Ballista/Trebuchet, 30-60% cannon, 60-100%
modern
> artillery Influenced by Mechanics

Good. Just need gunpowder for the last 2. Hehe it might be kinda
interesting to have a cannon like Final Fantasy 7. ^_^

> Non-Infantry or Mobile Units (Name Suggestion Needed): 0-10% battlewagon,
> 10-20%: chariot, 20-60% horsemen/cavalry, 60-100% armor
> Influeaced by Breeding and the three Personal military techs until 60%,
then
> Mechanics and Artillery after 60%.

modern armor (tanks) also is heavily dependant on computers and is as
someone who used to be in the military pointed out to me, much much differnt
than world war 2 tanks.

> Lighter than Air Flight: 0-40% balloons, 40-100% zepplin/blimp

um maybe add cold-air ballons or something for the really high altitude
ones...that would be near 100%, assuming 100% is modern.

> Powered Flight: 0-20 planes, 20-40 monoplanes, 40-90 jets, 90-100 stealth

stealth planes isn't really better flying it should be left somewhere else
and incorperated into powered flight.

> Hover Flight: 0-120% Helicopters, 120%+ EM Hovercraft

I would allow development of EM hovercraft before then since we currently
have some things that use this priciple today (monorail, rollercoaster FE)

[Richard Bruns]

Are u talking about planes and such or ballons and hang gliders? I know
for either a basic understanding of how birds use their wings...lets
see...if its just hang glider and balloon the wheel wouldn't be ness. Also the theory of gravity might also come in handy or atleast a high physics level.
---
I was asking what you were talking about. I simply see a tech called 'Flight' that could be the third thing the civ researches.
---
Um well maybe neither as far as the last prereqs go, just high math and
physics for atomic theory then, but for development of anything beyond
just the theory electronics and some degree of computer tech is ness.
---
Atomic Theory should probably be a hard prerequisite for any electronics. After all, you have to know about electrons in order to use them to do things. They had a really good grasp of Atomic Theory before any computers were made. By the way, what do you consider Electronics to be? I think of it as transistors and other semiconductor devices.
---
Note that if we use any metals that civ must have access through mines
or trade of them otherwise they will skip those techs
---
That is what I was thinking, but I don't want someone to instantly get a high level because that were deprived of a metal. FE if we are not careful a civ with bronze and iron might have to work hard to get to a high percent while a civ with iron only could get that level for free.
---
Ok well this should also have something to do with local resources as
far as
a few go. FE a katana can't be created w/o iron and steel working (or
rather steel working since steel requires iron)
---
But overall in this tech people have compensated for lack of resources, so they shouldn't be hurt by lack of something.
---
Again should be culture specific (ie shuriken).
---
Of course
---
Also crossbows came before primitive guns, but after composite bows.
---
Crossbows, primitive guns, longbows, and composite bows have about the same power and range. An English longbow had the penetrating power of a .30 caliber bullet. The difference lies in the techs you already have. FE if your Chemistry is higher you develop a gun and if your Mechanics is higher you get a crossbow.
---
As far as guns and rifles go...isn't it usually the other way around since its easier to get better range and accurancy from longer barrels and such which is why the first guns made were rifles.
---
Rifles were not used widely until the 1800's. Until then they used muskets and other smoothbore guns.
---
Hehe it might be kinda interesting to have a cannon like Final Fantasy 7. ^_^
---
If you mean the Mako Cannon I think that should be treated more like a nuclear weapon. But you can do whatever you want in the Far Future tech.
---
modern armor (tanks) also is heavily dependant on computers and is as
someone who used to be in the military pointed out to me, much much
differnt than world war 2 tanks.
---
I forgot that. Say that 85-100% is Computerized Armor.
---
um maybe add cold-air ballons or something for the really high altitude
ones...that would be near 100%, assuming 100% is modern.
---
Those don't really have military use as far as I know.
---
stealth planes isn't really better flying it should be left somewhere
else and incorperated into powered flight.
---
I disagree. Almost all modern air combat uses radar and missiles, so stealth gives a big advantage in combat and bombing missions. I didn't just mean engines in the scale; the percentage reflects overall ability.
---
I would allow development of EM hovercraft before then since we
currently have some things that use this priciple today (monorail, rollercoaster FE)
---
But they don't have any military use. I consider 100% of a tech to be represented by the best application the public knows about as of January 1, 2000. We don't know of any hovercraft in current military service, so 100% Hover Flight would be the Comanche.

[Richard Bruns]

> Are u talking about planes and such or ballons and hang gliders? I know
> for either a basic understanding of how birds use their wings...lets
> see...if its just hang glider and balloon the wheel wouldn't be ness.
Also
> the theory of gravity might also come in handy or atleast a high physics
> level.
> ---
> I was asking what you were talking about. I simply see a tech called
> 'Flight' that could be the third thing the civ researches.

Okay that was prob a leftover from before i remodeled it. I think i was
intending it to be hang gliders and such.

> Um well maybe neither as far as the last prereqs go, just high math and
> physics for atomic theory then, but for development of anything beyond
> just the theory electronics and some degree of computer tech is ness.
> ---
> Atomic Theory should probably be a hard prerequisite for any electronics.
> After all, you have to know about electrons in order to use them to do
> things. They had a really good grasp of Atomic Theory before any
computers
> were made. By the way, what do you consider Electronics to be? I think
of
> it as transistors and other semiconductor devices.

I see it as the internal hardware for most of the devices that are on there,
requardless of whether is transitors, microchips or vaccume tubes.

> Note that if we use any metals that civ must have access through mines
> or trade of them otherwise they will skip those techs
> ---
> That is what I was thinking, but I don't want someone to instantly get a
> high level because that were deprived of a metal. FE if we are not
careful
> a civ with bronze and iron might have to work hard to get to a high
percent
> while a civ with iron only could get that level for free.

Yes, but it can be made to be balanced and i think its too much a part of
history and such that we need to have it in there. Besides this is prob one
point i won't budge on. I already did with horses cuz i renamed then
animal-riding and such, but I really won't budge on that issue. As far as g
ame balancing goes, it shouldn't be too hard to give them other advantages
if ness. Also lets say u skipped broze working and went strait to iron.
U'd still haveto spend some time researching these which is why i think they
should be put outside the metallurgy scale and researched sep. This will
make it much easier.

> Ok well this should also have something to do with local resources as
> far as
> a few go. FE a katana can't be created w/o iron and steel working (or
> rather steel working since steel requires iron)
> ---
> But overall in this tech people have compensated for lack of resources, so
> they shouldn't be hurt by lack of something.

On the contrary they should. If they were truly good managers of
civilization they'd know to atleast invest enough resources to make certain
items of what they want, in this case katanas. They might be specializaed
elsewhere, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't slight them for ignoring areas
(or atleast considering other things lower priority). You may know how to
make a bridge FE, but without the proper materials it doesn't do no good.
True that these materials can vary somewhat, but if u know only how to make
a specific kind of bridge u need those materials in particular. The same
pricipal is applied to swords, or weapons in general.

> Also crossbows came before primitive guns, but after composite bows.
> ---
> Crossbows, primitive guns, longbows, and composite bows have about the
same
> power and range. An English longbow had the penetrating power of a .30
> caliber bullet. The difference lies in the techs you already have. FE if
> your Chemistry is higher you develop a gun and if your Mechanics is higher
> you get a crossbow.

OK

> As far as guns and rifles go...isn't it usually the other way around since
> its easier to get better range and accurancy from longer barrels and such
> which is why the first guns made were rifles.
> ---
> Rifles were not used widely until the 1800's. Until then they used
muskets
> and other smoothbore guns.

Yea i know but rifles still came before handguns.

> modern armor (tanks) also is heavily dependant on computers and is as
> someone who used to be in the military pointed out to me, much much
> differnt than world war 2 tanks.
> ---
> I forgot that. Say that 85-100% is Computerized Armor.

OK

> um maybe add cold-air ballons or something for the really high altitude
> ones...that would be near 100%, assuming 100% is modern.
> ---
> Those don't really have military use as far as I know.

Oh okay i forgot this was for military purposes! Yea ur right there.

> stealth planes isn't really better flying it should be left somewhere
> else and incorperated into powered flight.
> ---
> I disagree. Almost all modern air combat uses radar and missiles, so
> stealth gives a big advantage in combat and bombing missions. I didn't
just
> mean engines in the scale; the percentage reflects overall ability.

Still that comes as an overall increase in all areas of military, not just
aircraft and it would be kinda redundant to put stealth subs, stealth
planes, stealth tanks... mainly most of these stealth advances in the latter
half of the century have come from advances in differnt types of radar and
how to avoid them so u might add a basic tech for either stealth or radar.
It just makes it easier to incorperate a stealth battleship if u really
wanted to instead of stealth fighters for some reason.

> I would allow development of EM hovercraft before then since we
> currently have some things that use this priciple today (monorail,
> rollercoaster FE)
> ---
> But they don't have any military use. I consider 100% of a tech to be
> represented by the best application the public knows about as of January
1,
> 2000. We don't know of any hovercraft in current military service, so
100%
> Hover Flight would be the Comanche.

Ok. Well u did bring up something i wanted to talk about in another way.
That is what basic techs rep. Is it to current modern levels or my original
idea of simply a percentage beyond the basic knowledge of that technology.
The only reason i have a prob with the former is because, well acutally 2
(but 1 is easier to solve than the other).
1> What determines 100%? Is it the highest level achieved thusfar or is it
closer to most of the rest of the world if one civ is really ahead in an
area. Take the case i had for agriculture. The US produces more food than
any other nation per acre. France is second, but much closer to the rest of
the world. The US produces over 400% more food per acre than france so
should France or US rep the 100% mark?
2> How will we determine what future techs start out at? Some might be
easy, but what about some of the more advanced ones, esp far future ones.

[Richard Bruns]

Okay that was prob a leftover from before i remodeled it. I think i was
intending it to be hang gliders and such.
---
OK, but I still think it is a bit too early.
---
I see it as the internal hardware for most of the devices that are on
there, requardless of whether is transitors, microchips or vaccume tubes.
---
OK
---
Also lets say u skipped broze working and went strait to iron.
U'd still haveto spend some time researching these which is why i think
they should be put outside the metallurgy scale and researched sep. This
will make it much easier.
---
I don't understand this.
---
Still that comes as an overall increase in all areas of military, not
justv aircraft and it would be kinda redundant to put stealth subs, stealth planes, stealth tanks... mainly most of these stealth advances in the latter half of the century have come from advances in differnt types of radar and how to avoid them so u might add a basic tech for either stealth or radar. It just makes it easier to incorperate a stealth battleship if u really wanted to instead of stealth fighters for some reason.
---
It's not like you research all of this seperately. You simply ask scientists to make better stuff and this is what happens. There is no real difference; your stuff is just at a higher percentage. I see all of the labels as meaningless; the real value is simply the percentage. But you are right in that once stealth is discovered, it can be used for lots of things. I will have to work on that.
---
Ok. Well u did bring up something i wanted to talk about in another
way. That is what basic techs rep. Is it to current modern levels or my
original idea of simply a percentage beyond the basic knowledge of that
technology.
---
I think that 0% is no knowledge whatsoever and 100% is the best human knowledge at 2000 AD. Between that, it is a linear scale of ability.
---
The only reason i have a prob with the former is because, well acutally
2 (but 1 is easier to solve than the other).
1> What determines 100%? Is it the highest level achieved thusfar or is
it closer to most of the rest of the world if one civ is really ahead in an area. Take the case i had for agriculture. The US produces more food
than any other nation per acre. France is second, but much closer to the
rest of the world. The US produces over 400% more food per acre than france so should France or US rep the 100% mark?
---
As the best, the US is at 100%. But that would mean the rest of the world is at or below 25%. Maybe we should use a logarithmic scale instead of a linear one. That would probably be better, and now that I think about it I set my military stuff to a log scale.
---
2> How will we determine what future techs start out at? Some might be
easy, but what about some of the more advanced ones, esp far future
ones.
---
For far future stuff, set 100% to be the highest that the player can get. 0% is still no knowledge and 1% is minimal knowledge.

PS I won't get done as fast as I thought. I'm really sorry. Is there a deine for version 4, because if there is I will finish what that demo needs.