Beyond Alpha Centauri:: Discussion Thread 2

[Frankychan]

That sounds very good.

But its GHE dude, not GHH!

Ok, so here's the low-down:

A Ranger ship goes down on a planet, damaged. Hive hear's the distress that the ship is transmitting and sends a ship to investigate. Hive, unable to determine what the ship is, decides to keep it. Meanwhile, a Protectorate battleship shows up and when they say they want their ship back and we refuse...a stand-off occurs.

Did I get that right? Ooh, two "evil" empires let loose in the galaxy? Sounds rather promising, if not delightfully destructive.

[Sprayber]

Hello everyone. Imagine my surprise when I came back to find yet another enemy of the Spartan Federation. Here is a link to the map to get things in perspective.

http://www.geocities.com/beyondalphacentauri/starmaps.html

note: I wouldnt want to actually try to navigate by it, but its the best that can be done in limited time.

If the Spartans had been attacked by anyone they would have definitly went looking for them in force. (Hive will soon learn about Spartan force. )

The protectorate seems to be quite strong. only loosing to alien factions. It's just a bit unrealistic for a faction that strong to go unseen for 700 years. Even the Hive as reclusive as they are was known about just not exactly where. Especially if events so close to the center, such as the battle of coventry were observed. I hope some of you aren't operating under the assumption that the spartans are not that intelligent. Expect massive retaliation from the Spartans when when one of their ships are attacked. wheither it be from Bree or from human, the Spartans will not simply put it down as random aliens or Pirates.

Also, Aliens are mostly for backstories, at least the advanced ones. If we play with them too much they decide that humans are too much of a threat and squash us like so many others have been.

The alien dynamic is this

Bree and Gorn are very advanced civilizations in an almost perpetual war. They have many planets each and the human systems would be a backwater to them.

The Fraal[ seem to be content with the constant Bree Gorn war and generally leaves them to kill each other while from time to time providing a counter to any desires to squash the upstart humans. Reasons are to be revealed sometime later i guess.

Then Tarn (Uv Watt) are a reclusive race only slightly more advanced then humans. They don't have the numbers of the Gorn or Bree but some how have managed to survive. Most likely because they don't cause trouble and stay to themselves. Otherwise they are friendly to humans in that they mind their own business. There have been times when Uv Watt ships have rescued humans in trouble but only do as much as is needed to save their lives.

Progenators are mostly concerned with their on going civil war and finding manifolds. When they encounter others(including humans) shots may be fired depending on what they happen to be doing at the time. If you attack them, you better be sure they don't communicate with others of their side or you will have the entire civilization down on your heads. The only reason the humans defeated them on Chiron hundreds of years ago was because the two parties were isolated and cut off from the rest of their people. The Fraal seem to not want the Progenators to find much of their lost civilization. Probably because they dont want the competition. Imagine the Progenators, they had the tech to construct manifolds, lost most of their tech, then had enough time to advance back to the state that they are in. Since the Fraal don't seem to have a homeworld, they may have suffered a similar fate except that they remained unified and in possesion of their technology?

Interaction with humans

Humans are mid level players. There are a few races below them. They are all primitive and planet bound. The races that belong to the GHE seem to have been on the verge of advancing, when they met the Hive. Franky?

Everyone just try to limit the number of advanced aliens when relying on technology or major plot lines. especially when they affect other people.

And do expect that if you mess with the older races too much, you will be swated back. It is hard enough to take a human planet. It's almost impossible to take planet from the older races. Unless its a very small outpost or something.

When humans factions get involved with a one on one fight with the Bree or Gorn or Progenators, or Fraal they will loose if the odds are even. It took Spartan and Drone forces to fight the Bree to a standstill. And the Bree most certainly only depolyed a small fraction of what it could have. They stoped because they had bigger problems with the Gorn. Their relationship with the Hive is a result of this. They will give them somethings, but won't give them what they could. They needed some kind of ally to get rid of thier nuisance (Spartans, Drones) If the Spartans were to ever to get the Gorn to become allies, then the whole picture would change. Humans would become important in the over all scheme of things. Of course then they would become a target as well. I'm sure the Fraal would then be concerned.

note: when i say faction, i simply say it as a convient way of addressing them. the Spartans do not consider themselves a faction, no more than the Pks, hive or Drones do anymore. They have all evolved their societies to a point to where they are different. Now the former chiron factions will have somethings in common with each other. Just as the terrans will with each of their members. Some of the many independent worlds may even be terran in origin. others will be chiron based.

[Mellian]

Originally posted by Lonestar



Well, while they may have intially believed pirates (not The Pirates) were in the Altair system, if you consult my timeline you'll note we left evidencing implicating the Progenitors at the destruction of a Drone Space Station that was constructed in system. Thus, If human factions repeatbly lose ships while entering the system (remember, the Protectorate had a leg up techwise, with the "Graveyard" on Altair3) they may decide not to investigate it that deeply, especially if large amounts of ships are needed elsewhere. (I wouldn't say no to the Hive being aware of our existence, as they have similiar polices and have probaly devolpe very efficient stealth or cloaking technology, like us)

IF humans keep losing ships at the system, they would want to know why, not simply forget about it and trust nothing will come out and attack them. Altair is simply to close to within the core area of Human Space to keep the Protectorate secret from multiple factions....and other factions are simply not that dumb..... in this universe, any pirate groups can easily be connected or considered as part of the Pirate Faction.... so if they think they are pirates, they will think it a group/clan of the Pirates. If the Protectorate left evidence implicating the Proginators, then the other factions may think that the Proginators are doing something at Altairs, and I am sure the Drones, Spartans and so on will not trust a Proginator Presense this close, this deep in Human Space.... and can't exactly implicate a Proginator Faction unless you leave their logo floating about, which would be suspicious. Factions will be nosing and will want to know what is in Altairs...and there is ways to find without needing to send a big arse fleet which could easily get destroyed. there is such thing as probes, scout ships that can do sneaky jumps in and do a quick scan of a planet and then jump out before getting destroyed, and etc....... As for the Pirates, they spread everywhere and will poke their noses everywhere.... and i know some Dominating Pirate Clans like the Kane Wolverines, with help of the Data Angels stealth technology, to sneak in. Oh, pirates isn't easy to infiltrate as they are not exactly concentrated :P
Anyway, Humans is a Curious and Stubborn race, as well as paranoid, so will not simply stand around and do nothing about Altairs.... If you want to stay at Altairs, Fine, just the keep your Society Secret is practicly impossible and you cannot Cloak Worlds and large activity of ships within a system. if you want to keep your society secret, then consider having them at another system, slightly further away from the Core of Human Space and away from the major factions.

In a Sci-fi story thread?

So do I. And I've amended the history where needed too. As the Drones are the only ones affected by this, I only needed their approval (which I got).

The secretness doesn't only effect the drones... and other factions will wonder why the drones are not doing anything at Altairs, so will try to claim the system... when getting there, they will loose ships or whatever, and will become curious. Chiron Factions don't like Proginators and they are not be comfortable in having proginators this deep in human space... so Proginator evidence will simply attract them, not scare the other humans off. the Unknown will also attract their attention.... don't you see? I am sorry to be a pain, but realisticly, you have to consider Human Nature and the characteristics of the Chiron Factions.... especially the Spartans. and when the Data Angels find out, with help of some Pirate friends... they won't keep their mouth shut....unless it suits them.

Hmm...you are not aware of the concept of "Proxy wars", are you? Perhaps the Caretakers passed down this Tech so that we would battle the Usurpers? (note that they are our primary enemy anyway). In Babylon5, this was a common plot, with the Advance Shadows passing tech to The Drakh and other races, while the Vorlons did the same with the Minbari. In fact, I was building for an encounter with a Usurper-Proxy race(or Human faction!).

I am perfectly aware of what Proxy Wars are, just never use that term before :P What i was trying to say is, Proginators not interested in having another advance Species at another front.... and the Proginators having bad luck in the pass to use the proxy idea...as species like the Bree seem to end up fighting them instead of helping them.... so the Proginators are quite Xenophobic just to say.......... then there is the Fraal factor... they are consider to be the most advance and nomadic.... they seem to know everything and be able to predict things. the Fraal are also picky....and they do have an interest in the Human race and to encourage their natural development...and encouraging that humanity unite.... so, they won't be keen of other races giving out techs.... especially from the Proginators, whom the Fraal is not to fond of... and hope humanity never becomes like them, to fight among themselves for millenias. Anyway, Fraal made it known to other advance races like the Proginators, the Bree and so on to leave humanity alone....without using threats as they are a polite species... but races liek the Proginators knows to take it seriously...as they had bad experiences with angry Fraals and their big motherships armed with Phasers :P (they are the most advance and phaser in this game is deadly :P)

anyway, no Singulirity Reactors!!! different method of FTL and STL travel, sure.... but no Singulirity Reactors!!! to advance weapons like the Proginators either too.

oh, talking about the Fraal (the big black eyes yet skinny aliens, also known as Greys or whatever, that be the most common UFOs here on Earth? also from the Alternity Star*Drive game), what would be the Protectorates reaction if a Fraal ship simply showed up at Altairs to say hello? and they would do that like sometime in the 2400-2500s, when Humanity start have the sense of human sects :P like the Terrans, the Chironians, and etc....


-LMP

...if your not willing to compromise, you won't be able to go very far...

[Lonestar]

That's a lot of "..."


You seem to be seeing the forest for the trees here, LMP. One This isn't Star Trek. In a time of war (be it with the Bree or other factions) No one is going to burn resources to study a system who isn't really doing anything to anyone...excepting destroying those who enter the system. You'll note as of the start of the story, I've had more and more human ships trying to enter the system, which encouraged the Protectorate to finally reveal itself.

("It's only a matter of time before they send sufficient force to discover us...")

The Altair sytem has several artificial Gravity wells placed through out the system, used to yank incoming ships out of FTL travel. It is impossible to enter the system with the Protectorate knowing.

Protectorate forces used a Progenitor ship recovered from "the Graveyard" to attack the Drone Space station. Note; the ship was only half built, the primary purpose was to bang up the transmitters so the Drones would see a Progenitor vessel attacking(after which, the main Protectorate fleet arrives)



Historically, Pirate nations were not united under one flag. It's presumpetious to presume it would be like this in the future. (If it were, it would be a pile-on on the Nautilus Pirates. Dog-pile! wwwwwoooo!!!. Sorry, post-bowl fervor there)

You'll note that while we gained a singularity reactor from the Caretakers, that was the extent of it. You'll also note we gained FTL from "the Graveyard" on Altair3.

Many of our weapons systems are lifted straight from other Human nations, as noted in my Military Commentary, although some are indigeonous, and are heavy Particle Cannons are of Dosi design. The newest Hulls are Nanotech of Dosi design, all previous Protectorate ships are compareble to any other Human ship.

Cloak the worlds? Oh my goodness no. That causes cancer. Haven't you ever seen TNG When the Brough Breaks? You're right, there is only so much we can do to hide the existence of the Protectorate. Of course, the Drones already had a pretty good idea there was a human colony there...

-------------------

I will be more than willing to dump having a Singularity Engine tech. No more Caretakers giving up tech. Hmm.....lesse.....Matter/Antimatter it is!

they won't keep their mouth shut....unless it suits them.

You mean like large sums of money? (followed sortly thereafter by death threats?


Well, you're right about the immense difficulty of hiding a society in the Altair system, presumably there would be all shorts of Tachyon emissions and whatnot coming out. But as the Protectorate has lived in the Altair system for Hundreds of years before the Chironians left Planet, I would think they would have a leg up on knowing how to secure their system.


So, in brief:


-Protectorate is staying put in Altair.[whiny voice] You can't make me move![/whiny voice]

-You're thinking monolinearly. If most Human Nations are engaged in widespread conflict, they are not going to burn the resources needed to explore the Altair system. Most of them would be inclined to believe the "natural occurance" story.

-I will go and remove all vestiges of the Caretakers handing out tech to us.

-In the last 10 years, our aliance with the Dosi has yielded incredible tech. (NanoTech hulls, Particle Cannons)

-While destroying those who enter is the most visible way of us maintaining our secrets, there are literaly thousands of Agents scattered throughout the Human nations, working to keep our existance unknown. (burning records and whatnot).

-Note, I have said I would not be opposed to, say, the Hive knowing of our existence. They have similiar isolationist policies to us and know what to look for.

Now, if you excuse me, I'm off to do my Int'l Relations paper, which I should have been doing instead of talking to you.

[Sprayber]

Lonestar: What seems to be wrong with moving your faction to another star system? Is your way or no way. Everyone here has comprimised in some way to better the story. And yet you dont' seem to want to.


Everyone else: Am I being unfair? Is it logical for anyone to assume that as many ships that have went into the system that close to the human systems and never returned, that somewhere before 700 years someone didn't get a little curious. Do you think the Spartans would allow an area next to it to be a source of possible alien bases or allow ships to simply disapper without finding out who they had to kill in retribution? I really would like endless fleets, planets, and be able to see into the intimate details of the hive, terrans, pks and pirates but its not realistic for me to do that without the risk of being sighted. It would be cool for the Gorn to come in and join with sparta and destory the hive but it would not be realistic. it would be nice for all that but to keep it half way going in an orderly fashion, we need some basic rules.

And one more thing. Didn't everyone agree not to post pictures in the story thread? I think it was me who asked everyone about it.

[History Guy]

Actually, I agree, any nation, especially one such as Sparta, would investigate the disappearance of a ship in such an area, and so many disappearances in the same area would certainly not be forgotten.

[Mr. President]

OK, if I may, I would like to play devil's advocate for Lonestar for a moment. I think it's quite reasonable for the Protectorate to remain secret. Even on Earth, there are places that are extremely isolated; space is so much bigger. The loss of ships might not encourage exploration of Altair. Many, many ships have vanished into the Bermuda Triangle; yet the Sixth Fleet has never been dispatched to investigate because a land that is the graveyard of ships is of no use economically or militarily.

[History Guy]

Yeah, but Mr. President, the reason the Sixth Fleet isn't at the Triangle is due to the fact that everyone knows for certainly that aggressive empires aren't destroying the ships and planes lost there.

And hey! We just got our 50th post!!

[Frankychan]

In Lonestar's defense,

I think that the message of "no posting pictures in the story thread" was early on in the discussion thread. I think we can let this one infraction slide.

However-I do think that compromise MUST be a key factor in this thread. I think I have compromised some of my idea's (although if you all think that the Hive has an advantage, let me know so I can level the playing field!) and many other author's have as well.

We all want our faction to be the best, but we should take into consideration of other author's as well.

As for the close proximity of the Human Protectorate to the Spartans, I have an idea...

Let's say that the Human Protectorate was using a form of government as a "front" for their real form of govt. The "official" govt. actually was the Human Protectorate but went under the guise of a democracy. Only in the past 100 or so years has the HP felt like it has enough strength to shed it's front.

...Maybe kinda like the whole Illuminati-theory....whatever, just throwing out something for y'all. But anyways...

ah you posted already Lonestar? Ok, gotta think of our point of view fast.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Sprayber

Interaction with humans

Humans are mid level players. There are a few races below them. They are all primitive and planet bound. The races that belong to the GHE seem to have been on the verge of advancing, when they met the Hive. Franky?

That is correct. As I see it, Yang wont care about what tech level the alien races were at...if they looked useful, they were going to be a part of his empire. Pre-Industrial society's, Beginning spaceflight, whatever, Yang would MAKE them become part of the GHE.

As for the loss of a ship, maybe contact was lost and presumed destroyed...although an investigation might occur.

Ok let's discuss handicapping the glorious Greater Hive Empire.

Right now I see us as having an advantage over some of the other "factions". We have numbers (billions of soldiers and citizens) and stealth technology (something that apparently only we and the H.P. have) as well as spies in other governments. (our alliance with the Bree doesn't really count cause they aint doing squat)

If I didn't post it in the previous thread, my apologies. But, I think to make it fair to the rest of you I think these concessions are in order:

1. Our weaponry will be less than that of, let's say, the Spartans. So instead of laser-type weaponry, we use rail guns.
Hive mostly uses projectile-based weaponry instead of energy.

2. No shields. (sorry to bring this up again Sprayber!). None of our ships have shields except maybe a miniscule amount. Hive military uses sheer numbers instead. Kinda like the Drone's in the actual game.

3. Well, I can't think of a 3 but it'll come to me...

I hope this kinda makes the Hive seem more realistic to you all. If you think the Hive needs some adjustments, don't be scared...just tell me! But let's be reasonable on it. I still like our secrecy-isolationist "advantage" though.

...and what's with those potshot's Sprayber? Nah, i don't care. Cause the Spartan Federation and Kessel are gonna see what the Greater Hive Empire and Yang are all about.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by frankychan
In Lonestar's defense,

I think that the message of "no posting pictures in the story thread" was early on in the discussion thread. I think we can let this one infraction slide.

However-I do think that compromise MUST be a key factor in this thread. I think I have compromised some of my idea's (although if you all think that the Hive has an advantage, let me know so I can level the playing field!) and many other author's have as well.

We all want our faction to be the best, but we should take into consideration of other author's as well.

As for the close proximity of the Human Protectorate to the Spartans, I have an idea...

Let's say that the Human Protectorate was using a form of government as a "front" for their real form of govt. The "official" govt. actually was the Human Protectorate but went under the guise of a democracy. Only in the past 100 or so years has the HP felt like it has enough strength to shed it's front.

...Maybe kinda like the whole Illuminati-theory....whatever, just throwing out something for y'all. But anyways...

You see why your the morale officer.

I don't want anyone to need defending. This isn't an attack. At least I don't want it to be seen as one. We all have made compromises for the story. Remember, I wanted shields.


Just because you have an idea that doesn't fit at the moment doesn't mean you can't hold on to it for later where it may be more revelant. But Lonestar doesn't seem to want to budge on anything. The reason I wanted to make this a multi author thread in the first place was because I knew that I didn't have all the answers. I wanted this to be good, and it wouldn't have if I had tried to do it myself.

[Frankychan]

Thanks for pointing that out Sprayber,

I think there should be compromise...period.

Well, on to other things,

It's good to see the Spartan response. Same cold, demanding language as in the game. I'll post something soon involving our reply.

I also like History Guy's little humor. Someone getting upset over a trashcan is pretty funny to me (I like situational humor).

Ok, enough talking. Time for me to do some serious story writing.

[Sprayber]

Franky: you have done plenty to make the Hive even. Don't worry too much about weakening your faction anymore.

We all have advantages and weakness. Since most factions have changed in 700 years, they aren't all along the same lines in the game but thats ok. But no human faction should expect to take on the advanced aliens on equal footing and expect to win. Lesser primitive races, sure. If people start giving their factions special privilages then the whole exercise becomes moot. It ceases to be fun.

[Sprayber]

Ill get another post up very soon. i just gave you something to work with right now. Ill get to writing an expanded post.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by frankychan
In Lonestar's defense,

I think that the message of "no posting pictures in the story thread" was early on in the discussion thread. I think we can let this one infraction slide.

I didn't catch this one. Yes it was actually some time ago. It just clutters up the thread I think. Like I told everyone. I will be more than happy to put stuff up on a webpage for anyone. It may not be overnight, Frequent trips to the hospital being the reason. But I will get the stuff up.