[C4:AC] Revised tech tree discussion

[ForesterSOF]

We can make that oomph could be:

less research time
faster build or items (units, SP, etc.)
stronger military units
find more resources
maintanance cost go down
life expectancy increase

-oomph could be
polution as mentioned
harder to keep citizens happy
disease increase

[N35t0r]

Originally posted by Rubin


One of the strengths of this approach is easier "implementation and balancing". Technology branches do not offer a broader variety of improvements; instead, existing improvements get increased yields with new technologies.

I think we could try this approach, but I would be very interested in having technologies offer new terraform options and not just increased yields of existing improvements.

This kind of specialization would be much more difficult to balance and would probably require extensive technology tree changes, but I definitely want to try!

My main problem with lots and lots of different improvements is that you'll end up with lots of useless improvements. I can see a couple of government/situation-specific improvements, but no more than two or three.

Having the yelds of certain improvements change according to tech seems a much better way of balancing things, IMHO...

Also, new terraform options, if they are better than existing ones, are the same only it takes some time for your formers to replace them...

What about introducing different levels in improvements? For example, have mines be upgradeable to boreholes, or farms upgradeable to condensors (with only one every 5/9 farms being useful?)

[ForesterSOF]

Lets holdup on doing a new tree and balance for Ver 2 of the MOD.

We can have a traditional tech tree MOD and then make an Advanced tech tree MOD.

[TimeTraveler]

As someone obsessed with tech trees and hoping for a way to meaningfully contribute to the C4:AC project, I find it depressing how far from its original topic this thread became. Well, here's my new rant if this can count as such.

I guess one issue I've hoped to discuss is the realism of the tree. We can start with (then continue beyond) the linear stretch of technologies going from Pre-Sentient Algorithms to Digital Sentience, because although Digital Sentience probably should require Pre-Sentient Algorithms in some way, the only link there that makes sense is the one from Nanominiaturization to Industrial Nanorobotics. The rest looks like more filler to make the tree more narrow, thus decreasing the number of options one has in researching advances mid-late game. Adjusting that area may prove more worthwhile.

One major question: Are the progenitors going to be in C4:AC? Because if not, then I'm not sure how much sense Progenitor Psych or Secrets of the Manifolds could be. I'm going to admit I never did like the tree of SMAX as much as vanilla SMAC. However, the new advances look just tacked-on, and it would help if advances like N-Space Compression had more basis for wherever they're placed (if anywhere).

I guess for every prerequisite, one should ask oneself, "why is this here?" Sometimes the answer will be obvious: Planetary Networks is essentially Information Networks taken to a global scale. Other answers may be less obvious, or even questionable. Temporal Mechanics requires Matter Transmission because...?
Same goes for every time something doesn't require something else that it possibly should. Like Singularity Mechanics and Matter Compression.

Do note that despite anything done in the name of realism, said realism is bound not to what we've scientifically proven in the 21st century, but to the world of SMAC/X. In this world, there is a quasi-sentient planet, colonists to said planet, psychic native life, and the ability to split quanta with sufficient technology.

Also note that anything done to add to any definition of realism should not be done at the expense of fun. Although some may be slightly less frustrated if they know why Frictionless Surfaces leads to Quantum Power and what each does, they may also be more frustrated if they have too few choices on what to research, or if they can skip the rest of the tree to research Threshold of Transcendence, Controlled Singularity, Temporal Mechanics, and Eudaimonia.

Of course, as many have expressed here is that a major reason the SMAC/X tech tree hasn't been much fun is due to its applications. If the applications of a tree are too overpowered, either make them milder, make the tech more expensive, or split the tech into two (if the two can make enough sense). If the application(s) of an advance aren't worthwhile, then either make them more worthwhile, decrease the cost of the tech, or merge the tech with another mild tech to which it's already very closely related and closely positioned on the tree.

I know that discussing ways to make all terrain improvements useful is quite important. But wouldn't that be best placed in another thread? I would like to see some more posts that have more to do with this thread's topic. Please?

[Rubin]

TimeTraveler, each technology with a prerequisite technology has a very brief description on the relation between these technologies. I do agree, though, that the relations often are vague. This is an area I think we should improve.

Perhaps you have some suggestions to more obvious technology relations? (Perhaps new technology names?) We could then use this as a something concrete to expand upon. One thing to keep in mind would be technology branching (Build, Conquer, Discover, Explore).

I think the "resonance concept" of SMACX could fit into the SMAC universe--even without any alien races (Progenitors). I agree that the new SMACX technologies "look just tacked-on".

I don't think your post counts as a rant

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by Rubin
TimeTraveler, each technology with a prerequisite technology has a very brief description on the relation between these technologies. I do agree, though, that the relations often are vague. This is an area I think we should improve.

Perhaps you have some suggestions to more obvious technology relations? (Perhaps new technology names?) We could then use this as a something concrete to expand upon. One thing to keep in mind would be technology branching (Build, Conquer, Discover, Explore).

I think the "resonance concept" of SMACX could fit into the SMAC universe--even without any alien races (Progenitors). I agree that the new SMACX technologies "look just tacked-on".

I don't think your post counts as a rant

In some of the descriptions, the relationships between technological advances don't even exist. Quantum Power's description, for example, makes no reference to either its prerequisites Frictionless Surfaces and Planetary Economics.

More obvious technological relations... I could wind up rewriting the tree. A lot. o.o For the 30th time or so. But eh. I'll probably have something.

Many of the resonance techs could remain, although most may have to be placed later on. I'd have Sentient Resonance require Digital Sentience somehow.

Thanks. ^^

I guess I should then try to organize my many, many thoughts together. o.o

[TimeTraveler]

Over the last few days, I've managed to compile an evaluation of every technology link in the game. The result turned out to be a lot less narrow than normal SMAC/X. If applied, Transcendent Thought may be Tier-12 instead of 16. And everything else would be lower than that.

My full evaluation is currently nearly 4100 words, nearly 26000 characters. Long enough that I may want to ask first how I should display that information here.

[Blake]

Hey Time Traveler let me first just say that altough it may seem there is some negativity towards changing the tech tree that is mostly because we think it's too much work to rebalance at this point. If you are willing (compelled?) to do that work and the result is more coherent and interesting than SMAC then I'm certain we will make use of it - I don't think anyone really loves the upper SMAC tech tree.

Is your evaluation a document? I confess I'm not exactly sure what you've done but it sounds very interesting. Want to just attach the file?

[Rubin]

Extensive changes to the technology tree would be a lot of work, but only "too much work" if we only consider finishing a decent C4:AC mod as fast as possible.

I believe we should try to finish a basic C4:AC mod that is playable--even if this means only small changes to the technology tree. However, I also believe that such a basic mod will not become the final C4:AC mod and that we can sensibly consider extensive revisions while still aiming for an "early release" mod. As long as we keep future revisions in mind when deciding on the structure and mechanics of the basic mod, I see absolutely no need for any kind of negativity.

TimeTraveler, I am very interested in what you've come up with. As Blake asks, attach it here?

[TimeTraveler]

Applying my version the tech tree would indeed require a lot of rebelancing to its applications. Especially in the realm of various combat elements being more or less effective (especially the reactors) and the Future Society advances having to be rethought.

I should probably mention that I haven't given solid answers to many of these. I created a form of the tech tree on another file, but I'll have to recreate it in another format before uploading it.

Hopefully, I can figure out how to rebalance... everything. To a nicely playable degree.

[Maniac]

Have you checked out the SMAniaC tech tree?

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by Maniac
Have you checked out the SMAniaC tech tree?

I have. To a degree. I have a flowchart of it stored on my computer. ^^ And in looking back, I probably should have paid attention to it a bit more. Especially regarding advances I hadn't recognized very much in SMAC/X, like Zero-Point Energy. Some things like the insertion of Quantum Computers I like. Although I do wonder how some of the connections in that tree came to be, most notably the prerequisites of Planetary Economics.

It would probably help to see some descriptions on what they do in your mod (in comparison to what they do in Vanilla SMAC/X) and how they relate to each other.

[Blake]

TT, here's my response to. what I've done is make me comments on your comments in Blue Text. I guess if others want to join in this bizarre means of communication they'd have to use another text color.

Anyway I do like the idea of reshuffling the tech tree and trimming some crap and maybe adding some needed stuff.

[N35t0r]

Setting up a wiki of some sort might be an idea...

[GeoModder]

Whoops, wrong button.

But on the TT's and Blake's discussion:
Indeed all the prog techs could be ditched, they don't add too much anyway.
On Orbital/Advanced spaceflight. Ditching AS isn't a bad idea, since it's mostly a better power source (like fusion) that makes faraway flights possible. But I would include a new tech after Orbital Spaceflight, namely Orbital Industry or somethink like that. On this tech you could link the satellites who give extra yield for the bases dirtside. If needed you could even make it a dead-end tech until later in the tech tree (OR connection).