Realistic Balanced Custom Factions.....

[Chaos Theory]

Here's the file. All the faction options at the top are limited to 8 in number. The rule options at bottom I have never breached a cap of.

There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons:

NODRONE works before Bureaucracy - Domai on a standard map with 0 effic and 12 bases, has drone riots in size 1 bases.

Free Rec Commons work after Bureaucracy - 100 bases at size 2 still won't riot

Free Rec Commons can be sabotaged, and sometimes don't apply to captured bases. NODRONE stacks with everything, but you can't build Rec Commons for even more drone control when you get them free.

[logic_error]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
I saw a faction a while back whose core was

+2 Econ
-2 Effic

and was something like the Enron faction. It would be to Morgan what Domai is to Yang.

They should have -4 morale too!

Anyway, I browsed Network Node on one day and had some funny moments when I saw factions with properties like these:

^+3 INDUSTRY: {Major industrial power}
^+1 RESEARCH: {Interested in new machine prototypes}
^-2 MORALE: {Troops are rushed in without proper training}
^-2 PLANET: {Believe that Planet is only there for exploitation}
^Free Prototypes: {Engineers readily improvise}
^Free PRESSURE DOMES at every base
^Extra DRONE for every four citizens {(discontent citizens)}
^-10% PSI Combat PENALTY: {Fear of netive lifeforms}
^{May not use Green economics.}

and

^-EFFICIENCY: {Large infrasructure due to high growth patterns.}
^-3POLICE: {Followers of a pacifist religion.}
^+4GROWTH: {Ritual fertility ceremonies to enhance poulation growth.}
^EXTRA TALENT: {Per 8 citizens. Self fulfilled lifestyle.}
^FREE FACILITIES: {HAB COMPLEX, CHILDRENS' CRECHE, communal living structures}
^140% RESEARCH COSTS: {Little belief held in future technologies.}
^{May NOT use CYBERNETIC future society.}

and

^+2 ECONOMY: {Due to fanatical need for wealth}
^-2 PLANET: {Disregard for Planet in quest for wealth}
^+1 INDUSTRY: {The backbone of any economy}


Population booming or +2 economy from turn one?!

[Natalinasmpf]

There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons:

And with both...

Anyway for your rate table, there needs to be more considerations in the social engineering table, also considerations of significant "stepping stone" social engineering that could lead to drastic (detriments or benefits) in situations, but might not, etc.

For example, +1 Econ should be around 3 points, but +2 should be eight points. +3, twelve, +4, fifteen, and +5, seventeen. As for capturing alien life forms. actually I'm starting to think that 0 should give a 5% chance. -1 Planet would give no chance, of course, but would be about it.

Anyway, what about the tables for what can be counted in the eight stuff limit, and what is not?

[Kaboth]

Thanks for the comments Natalinasmpf,

No comment on my faction?

Sorry which faction is that? I only saw posts you made critiquing other factions.

Data Angels (possibly due to probe rollover bug)

Robust to knowledge?

This gives them +3 probe with knowledge and presentient....

Hey good thinking. I'm gonna do this.

In need of weakening:
The Hive

I think no pop-booming in any case, and -2 Econ is already penalising enough.

Personally I find the immunity to inefficiency compensates for the no pop boom and negative economy well. Allowing the Hive to pick police state and planned at no penalty is great for pre-clean reactor war mongering. Not to mention free perim defense. Perhaps changing the immunity to robust might be just enough to better balance them.

For the Spartans, they should get a free children's creche at every base, due to the emphasis on morale, training and discipline, education. etc.

This might be to powerful allowing the Spartans to pop boom without ever having to build the necessary infrastructure. I'll have to play with the Spartans some more and come up with something. I don't really play online so its hard to make good balance decisions playing against the AI.

Cult should get +1 probe, because they are a cult, generally, revered to native life - which native life being immune to probe teams....

Sounds reasonable I wonder if its a big enough change to really strengthen the cult though.

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf

There is a substantial difference between NODRONE, 2 and free Rec Commons:

And with both...

Anyway for your rate table,

These aren't my tables or my creations. Credit goes to http://www.crosswinds.net/~smaccf/ (whether they still exist or not I don't know).

there needs to be more considerations in the social engineering table, also considerations of significant "stepping stone" social engineering that could lead to drastic (detriments or benefits) in situations, but might not, etc.

For example, +1 Econ should be around 3 points, but +2 should be eight points. +3, twelve, +4, fifteen, and +5, seventeen. As for capturing alien life forms. actually I'm starting to think that 0 should give a 5% chance. -1 Planet would give no chance, of course, but would be about it.

Anyway, what about the tables for what can be counted in the eight stuff limit, and what is not?

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
Here's the file. All the faction options at the top are limited to 8 in number. The rule options at bottom I have never breached a cap of.

(emphasis added)

[livid imp]

Originally posted by logic_error
Anyway, I browsed Network Node on one day and had some funny moments when I saw factions with properties like these: ......etc......etc.......etc......

I too started to post some of the god-awful factions over at the node, then I realized it would be easier to just mention the ones that are not completely ridiculous. But let's face it, that is no fun

[ShadowKat]

Room for Two?

What's that, Nat - Communist faction, you say? How about this!

Community of Chiron

^LEADER: {Maxim Nikolaiev Romanov}
^BACKGROUND: {Russian Commonwealth, Unity Librarian}
^AGENDA: {True Communism}
^TECH: {Ethical Calculus}

^-1 POLICE: {Police control contrary to faction ideology}
^-1 INDUSTRY: {Reluctant to produce more than needed}
^
^Communal childcare: {Free CHILDREN'S CRECHE at each base}
^{May not use Police State politics.}

Priority: Eudaimonic {Believe everyone should be where they operate best}
Interested in Growth, Research
Will use force: No {Enforcing ideals upon others contrary to ideology}


Not a lot of mods, true, but I think it's both realistic and reasonable; I've played both as and against them a few times, and they work quite well. I'll gladly schlep the files around if anyone else wants to give them a run. And LI, can I try your mob?

Also, I'd really appreciate it if someone could work up some art for my Commies; I suck at drawing on a computer. :P

...Okay, how in blazes do you attatch a file to a post? >.<

[Natalinasmpf]

Toss in an impunity somewhere, perhaps to complete it, or 2 less drones, or something? Anyone tried using the +TALENT (the social engineering choice, not Lal's or Uni's kind of talent setting)?

Heck, I wonder if one could try "OFFENSE 80, DEFENSE 125" to emphasise the defence measures over offense?

I'll try doing some art.

How do you do the funny year things, like the Cult's emergence is only 2106, and the 2110 Believer no research?

[ShadowKat]

How do you do the funny year things, like the Cult's emergence is only 2106...

The Cult's what? I've never seen that, although it really should happen; they've always been there at the start of the game for me!

...and the 2110 Believer no research?

That I think is hardcoded, unfortunately. Why? Wha'd ye have in mind?

[Chaos Theory]

I don't know about the delayed start, but when you have a penalty to research, you accumulate no research at all for the first 5*(-Research rating) years of the game (including 2100, so Miriam gets tech points in year 2110).

[Natalinasmpf]

Ah, so thats why the drones weren't getting research!

I tried them for five years, then quit, because I thought that the 0.8 research I was getting meant that not a single point would accumulate till I got more.

Does fundamentalist also do that, if you switch to it midgame?

[Chaos Theory]

As far as I can tell, only factional research penalties cause this. Switching to fundy midgame definitely doesn't cause a problem, but there's a slim chance going fundy before 2110 might stifle your research (more).

[Quezacotl06]

Me private rating sytem for Syndicate Mafia: 12/20. They're about on-par with believers or spartans, in my eyes. EStrength4/4 (lots of credits). EFlexibility3/4 (easier drone control). MStrength 1/4 (slower research and pathetic morale). OFlexibility 1/4 (see earlier, plus bad at running green). DFlexibility 3/4 (creds can pay for quick upgrades).

Just my perspective.

I dont think mafia-style faction would rank highly in my own eyes (ideology-wise), but I would tolerate this being used against me in SMAC2 Multiplayer.

As for the general problem about unbalenced factions, I attribute that to it having no power rating system (which I am trying to make, I'm still looking for suggestions and improvements). If there is something to be said for Civ3, civ bonuses (commercial, industrius, religous etc) were very concrete and measurable. But too cookie-cutter, imo. SMAX is more fluid, but takes more restraint and energy to make a balenced faction.

As for custom factions, my turn

Utopia
+1 Growth/Economy/Industry (Good working conditions and social contract)
-1 Morale/Police/Support (Pacifist, freedom-loving)
25% Attack Penalty (Lack of agression)
1 Talent every 4 citizens (Idealism attracts intellectual elite)

Agenda-Eudaimonia
Shun-Power
Focus-Growth

My rating system puts them at 14/20, so their strength is equal to that of the Hive or Peacekeepers. But I'd like to hear your thoughts. I was thinking of adding x2 penalties of Police State, but I thought it would be overkill.

[ShadowKat]

Okay...having gotten over my raging case of the stupids (baka baka baka), here's the Community for people to check out. I haven't made the mods yet, but I'm seriously considering adding a 75% offense/125% offense offset and an impunity to, mmmm, Planned economics. Thoughts?

[Quezacotl06]

I think there should be an opposite to Immunity, like Pathetic efficiency, efficiency that can never go above 0. It could give some interesting SE options, eh?

As for -1 Talent, its a killer. extra drone at every base (at least im sure thats what it is). So 1 pop and 1 drone. You are paralyzed till u get to size 2, when u doctor, then u use ur 1 worker to quickly build a rec commons or police or something before u reach size 3, when the difficulty level drones kick in.

As for your commie faction, I don't think its attributes are particularly communist. It should be aversion to FMarket. You could keep it pro-eudaimonia (but i recomend giving it a focus that is a benefit of planned, because its nationalized industry/welfare state, which communism created. My idea for communist would be: +1 Industry (integrated cooperative industrial complex), and -1 Efficiency (Lack of market competition), and maybe -1 Drones, because most drones are malcontents, and commies are a type of modern malcontent, and would be normal citizens. I think the Ind bonus and Eff penalty is good cause it strikes a balence between extra minerals, and less energy (not as extremly as the hive, mind you). As an extra, robust efficiency (rather than immunity) would keep them from being distablized too much economicaly.