Ideal Social Engineering Settings

[Commy]

Well, you can't go wrong with America and its problems. But let's be fair. America has a HUGE government and federal organization. Heck, there are more federal government organizations in the US than there are people in most countries. So when you have that kind of beauracracy, you have lots of problems, so many that Americans just could honestly care less about all of the frauds and mistakes. That's why there's SNL and MTV (its an American thing).

When you people dis America, you really need to be dissing the government, not the people, not the military. The American people don't control everything the government does. Yep, that's right you Europeans, even you don't control everything your government does. So you can't blame America, but you can blame the Bush administration and you can blame the government, that's it.

Saying that most of Americans are ignorant thinking the US is the best country is partially true, in that most Americans aren't informed enough to make that decision. That doesn't mean they are wrong. Its like guessing on a test. You may not know the answer but you can still get it correct.

On the other hand, my European friends, how do you know that America isn't hard at work protecting your nation from terrorists? You don't, and we don't either. But it is very possible that "the fuzz" has prevented numerous attacks, and just let that one out of 100 get through, such as 9/11. American's may have issues, but America was the first modern democracy. While unlikely, you Europeans could still be serving Kings and Fascists without a little American influence. America has its issues. Forget about America being the best country, you can't deny Americans have done quite a lot for the world, and that includes Europe, so next time a fascist attacks Europe, I'll sit back and laugh at you "superior Europeans" on CNN while I play SMAC...

[ManOWar2]

Since 4 soldier on 5 of the NAZI army were figting the Red Army, (80% of the german army were defeated on the eastern front)


the paradox is that the communist red army saved democracy.







D-Day was nothing. Nothing but an hard image. while thousand of mens were dying on d-day, millions of men's were dying on the eastern front to push the nazi army and crashing them all. freeing all the occupied country.


An american paradox now... the so called "free market", anti-bureaucracy and anti-state interference in economy...

lol... dont need to tell more


No I'm not marxist... (haha)

[Ka Plewy]

Originally posted by ManOWar2
Since 4 soldier on 5 of the NAZI army were figting the Red Army, (80% of the german army were defeated on the eastern front)

You're confusing your statistics, and your political organizations. Not all soldiers were Nazis. Also, in most of the statistics I've seen, it's 2 in 3 soldiers of the German Army were on the Eastern Front, at the most, at any point in time. So, once Germany opened that front, the bulk of her forces remained there. Now, I will accept 80% of those soldiers were casualties.

Without D-Day, or even the threat of D-Day, Germany could've committed all of her forces to Russia, and ground both countries into the dust leaving someone else to pick up the pieces. I don't disagree with the fact that Russia played an important part of the war, in fact, I believe that Germany attacking Russia was the biggest mistake, leading Germany's ultimate defeat. Germany failed to plan for cold weather operations, didn't have strategic bombers to bomb factories, and didn't understand the control Stalin could exercise, moving factories, and towns wholesale across the country to keep them away from the front. However, one shouldn't automatically discount the value of D-Day, or the threat of D-Day, because it divided Germany's attention which was definitely a big deal. This is my entire point of context. If you're going to eliminate D-Day from the equation, eliminate it properly, as if US never entered the war, Germany sued Britain for peace (and was accepted), and then Germany could concentrate entirely on Russia. That is the only true way to determine the value of the D-Day operation, and it's entirely moot, because it's entirely impossible to measure, unless you're capable of travelling to an alternate reality to watch those series of events to unfold.

[ManOWar2]

I know for sure, most of the german army we're not nazi.

SS were a "minority", as the Feedayin of Saddam were. (20 000 on a "suposed" 1.5 millions strong army.)


For the third world war :


"Allied" data and history books says 2/3.

The german army say's 4\5 and this is what the actual governement of russia recognizes too.



Just consults their national archives.



(a political science doctor, looked those data and did it for me since he went to russia like 10 times and to germany 2 times)

[Commy]

Just because you went to Germany or Russia doesn't mean crap...

I'm an American, but that doesn't mean I know the most about American politics. Honestly, I wouldn't trust either source, because it wasn't the allies army, and germany and russia were too corrupted, or in the case of war, screwed up to care how many soldieres "were official". All that matters was they had a gun...

Go ahead, take America off the world, let it play isolationist...I laugh at you Europeans, you call us ignorant, so maybe we are, but you are arrogant, and foolish...

[Ka Plewy]

Originally posted by ManOWar2

Just consults their national archives.

And do you have a specific place for me to look, since you've done it yourself? Give me the book, and I'll look it up, until then, I'll just chalk your statements up to anti-americanism. Don't forget, England (Canada, too) was an Ally. So these are YOUR accepted numbers, too.

[ManOWar2]

Originally posted by Ka Plewy


And do you have a specific place for me to look, since you've done it yourself? Give me the book, and I'll look it up, until then, I'll just chalk your statements up to anti-americanism. Don't forget, England (Canada, too) was an Ally. So these are YOUR accepted numbers, too.

I didnt personnaly looked for it. Look what I wrote. A political scientist specialist, "doctor", did it and I know him so I was able to talk about it with him.


I dont care about what canadian governement will say about it and I'm sure england will tell the same things than USA. otherwise it would be stupid to do it... no need to explain.

I personnaly trust more the german officials army statistics than what the USA can tell about it.


You call me anti-american ? why ? what did I make ?

Is this really serious ?

lol haha come on, you a kind of extremism "patriotist" that will keep his eyes blind even if his governement is become more and more radical, or even lying to you. (wont start to talk about on what the usa governement lie with americans people, sorry, they always get angry and react like you are) Just because it's not correct to talk against the usa ? (I have nothing against americans, except if you are one of those 80 millions extremist evangelical christian, if it's the case I wont talk to you again)


pathetic.




If two regime with some hate toward capitalism were "corrupted", what you think about a true capitalist state ?

Any way the USSR wasnt corrupted much than US, if you think not, you are blind and know nothing about USSR. Actually propaganda and misinformation are really common toward USSR because it's in the USA interest and always been in capitalism interest. (what is funny is that USSR stopped to be "communist" as soon as Staline came to power, but no one did the difference, just remind that when Staline came to power, he restablished a market in some area and etc,

for interested people : Deutscher, Boukharin, all other availables primary sources.




(Boukharine was the right-hand of Staline, a right-wing bolchevik as staline were) various small text.

(I think the french traduction wont help you to find those book and I dont know the english one, because I only have the french traduction in my various papers. but look for those autors


ps : No one remember about the failed coup d'État of mega corporation in USA, against the "communist" Roosevelt ? (keynesian economy, this is what lead the american people to prosperity...not good anymore ? ... )

Thanks the general army that stayed loyal to Roosevelt...

This just an example of what is the interest of "capitalits".


Other PS : I'M canadian, from Québec and I speak french.
I have more in common with an american of New England than I can have with a true French. (sorry if I ruin english langage sometime hehehe)

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by ManOWar2
You call me anti-american ? why ? what did I make ?

Is this really serious ?

lol haha come on, you a kind of extremism "patriotist" that will keep his eyes blind even if his governement is become more and more radical, or even lying to you. (wont start to talk about on what the usa governement lie with americans people, sorry, they always get angry and react like you are) Just because it's not correct to talk against the usa ? (I have nothing against americans, except if you are one of those 80 millions extremist evangelical christian, if it's the case I wont talk to you again)


pathetic.

Ah, ad hominem again, how I missed you...

What makes you think your sources are any more reliable than those you disparage? Those in the US and those in Canada/Europe/etc have the same sources of information nowadays.

[ManOWar2]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory


Ah, ad hominem again, how I missed you...

What makes you think your sources are any more reliable than those you disparage? Those in the US and those in Canada/Europe/etc have the same sources of information nowadays.

lol... Hi

You may be right for sure.

But I personnaly think it was in the "allied" camp interest not to tell the "truth".
Why ?
Otherwise most of the credit of winning the war against the german could go to the red army.

For sure they were more farmers and nowhere "non official" figthers in USSR than you could found in occidental country. (french resistance was an official part of the free french army)


USSR alone could not won the war.
Allied alone couldnt too. (Since Japan was occupying large part of the USA forces --- thanks to the canadian :P in a part of France, Netherlands and a part Italy. )
In the end it's a team victory. (was not enough to prevent cold war...)


But the fact still that most of european country got liberate by red the army , and most of the german army were on the eastern front.


It was a large scale battle, more than the western front, even if both still large battle.

[Ka Plewy]

Originally posted by ManOWar2


You call me anti-american ? why ? what did I make ?

Is this really serious ?

No, I didn't, I said I was chalking your statements up to anti-americanism, not that you are, just that your posts indicate that slant.

lol haha come on, you a kind of extremism "patriotist" that will keep his eyes blind even if his governement is become more and more radical, or even lying to you. (wont start to talk about on what the usa governement lie with americans people, sorry, they always get angry and react like you are) Just because it's not correct to talk against the usa ? (I have nothing against americans, except if you are one of those 80 millions extremist evangelical christian, if it's the case I wont talk to you again)

I am not at all angry. Why does my faith have anything at all to do with the discussion, I never brought it up, so you should have no reason to bring up faith. I will stipulate that the government has lied, and will lie to the American people, if not the world.

pathetic.

Yes, isn't it. Attack me, instead of my arguments.

Any way the USSR wasnt corrupted much than US, if you think not, you are blind and know nothing about USSR. Actually propaganda and misinformation are really common toward USSR because it's in the USA interest and always been in capitalism interest. (what is funny is that USSR stopped to be "communist" as soon as Staline came to power, but no one did the difference, just remind that when Staline came to power, he restablished a market in some area and etc,

for interested people : Deutscher, Boukharin, all other availables primary sources.

I don't know what this has to do with my questioning your sources on the disposion of German forces in WWII.
This is my problem with this discussion, as soon as someone questions a point, this discussion springs into a new and unrelated direction

ps : No one remember about the failed coup d'État of mega corporation in USA, against the "communist" Roosevelt ? (keynesian economy, this is what lead the american people to prosperity...not good anymore ? ... )

What?! I'd love to see your primary sources on this.

This just an example of what is the interest of "capitalits".

I think Nwabudike said it best, "Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant. Need as well as greed have followed us to the stars, and the rewards of wealth still await those wise tnough to recognize this deep thrumming of our common pulse."

Other PS : I'M canadian, from Québec and I speak french.
I have more in common with an american of New England than I can have with a true French. (sorry if I ruin english langage sometime hehehe)

Yes, I know, you have a CDN flag under your name.
Actually, you have more in common with the typical European, since Europeans tend to discount anyone who isn't a typical liberal (from the US) as stupid for believing differently than they do. However, this is neither here nor there, my political ideology isn't relevant, nor are you correct in attempting to identify it, or my religious beliefs. Keep assumptions about other people out of your arguments, and you make then cleaner, and more direct.

P.S. I'm libertarian Presbyterian, not that it matters. I have even more in common with an American in New England, than you.

Regards.

[Commy]

So, let us talk about opening our eyes...

This is what I notice about you Europeans...

All you do is claim we Americans are ignorant, stupid, foolish, and watch too much CNN...yet you never mention anything good about Europe, nothing, ever...

I'm not saying there isn't anything good about Europe, but you all seem to know more about American's wrongs than your own country...

All of us Americans support our beliefs with facts, with actions done by America. And not just America, but the American people...

So, some of us our ignorant, mostly because we are sick of your weak arguemnents...

The mark of an intelligent person is one who uses facts and attacks the idea rather than the person...

This could be taken two ways...

Either you Europeans are all stupid and unintelligent...

Or you all need to OPEN YOUR EYES and realize that America has done a lot more for the world than you think...just because Bush is president for 8 years doesn't sudenly make America crap...there are 200 years of American influence that have changed the world, including your little arrogant world, my European friends...

And I thought being a wiger was only an American thing, but no, you Europeans have proved me wrong...

[ManOWar2]

Originally posted by Commy
So, let us talk about opening our eyes...

This is what I notice about you Europeans...

All you do is claim we Americans are ignorant, stupid, foolish, and watch too much CNN...yet you never mention anything good about Europe, nothing, ever...

I'm not saying there isn't anything good about Europe, but you all seem to know more about American's wrongs than your own country...

All of us Americans support our beliefs with facts, with actions done by America. And not just America, but the American people...

So, some of us our ignorant, mostly because we are sick of your weak arguemnents...

The mark of an intelligent person is one who uses facts and attacks the idea rather than the person...

This could be taken two ways...

Either you Europeans are all stupid and unintelligent...

Or you all need to OPEN YOUR EYES and realize that America has done a lot more for the world than you think...just because Bush is president for 8 years doesn't sudenly make America crap...there are 200 years of American influence that have changed the world, including your little arrogant world, my European friends...

And I thought being a wiger was only an American thing, but no, you Europeans have proved me wrong...

I'M NOT EUROPEAN.

I'm not anti-americans.

I dont attack the people of USA.

Most of the time it's me who got "attacked" just because I dont agree with "them" or you or whatever...


I'm not european and if there is liberal person on this planet you will find more of them in europe than you can do in USA.

Liberal isnt a "libertarian things" or simply a political party.

Actually, most of all occidental country are liberal, whatever you can say,



Democracy IS a liberal value. So republicans have liberal values too as I have and you probably have too.



And for my other friend : (hehe)

For sure you probably have more in common with an american of new england than me. It's logic...

I still live every day of my life in perpetual contact with american lifestyle and my "lifestyle" is very "american"

I agree with most the americans values and I like american people. (I have see lot of tourists in Montréal, as I visited 5 new englands states... more coming in the next trip

I was talking about the usa governement lying to you, not for the "topic" we were discussing, but I mean in general.

Maybe americans dont like people from europe, I dont know, but if there is the case, just ask you something,

there is a reason for that.

You may want to know that american is 34th in the world for the "Free Press", behind states such mexico.

Isnt there a "sign" of hard propaganda, media concentration for the personnal interest of a minority.

Much of americans people (probably not the people who come here to talk, I agree) are "ignorant"' and that's a fact.

I just remember that Bush didnt even knew Québec was French and looked really idiot when he was not able to respond to a media question , something like : " Did you knew that Canada have a large part of french community, since canada was first founded by french ?" (could give so much example)

Hello, he is your president and have like 0 knowledge on what happen in the rest of the world...

Anyway, My goal is not to blast american people.


I just hope a day they will see the truth about what happening to theirs country.

And that's a fact,

I dont want to be "arrogant"

but I know the americans history probably more than most of americans and I know basics things about USA that most of USA people dont even know themself.


I guess most of people on this forum are 'intellectual" in different ways, so yes, most of people here are probably not the good "representation" of the typical american,

as I dont look like a typical "Québécois' (French canadians mean "acadians" and other french people in canada, Québécois is more specific )

(most of Québécois are stupid I admit. lol )

I know lot of good americans, but the main problem I encounter with americans people, is there lack of "comprehension" of the rest of the world and what the other people may think as theirs lack of personnal knowledge and there total "blinded" patriotism toward their governement. (On the other hand, the "anti and alter globalization movement are very present in USA, as greenpeace or other kind of those groups, what is actually good I think.)

Well I'm not sure why I'm talking about all those things,

If I were better in english I could talk about much more complicated things, but I'm limited when I'm writting. (normally I can ready everything)

Most of americans may think french people are "anti-americans"

But remember the americans country was founded by the inspiration of the french revolution and those both coutry have lot of value shared.

And it still true in 2005.

Being anti-bush and anti religious extremist is not anti-american.

It's just alarmous when you see the Only superpower in this world with a guy who telling about good and evil, god mission, etc.

It's not really different from religious extremist who call the same argues...

(pls dont tell me this is for liberty and democracy)

[Ka Plewy]

Originally posted by ManOWar2
I'M NOT EUROPEAN.

I'm not Republican, nor funadmentalist christian, but you were quick to jump to that conclusion, because of what I had written.
I think that you blend in well with the typical anti-American, European frame of mind. IF someone makes a mistake that you are European, it's because your English isn't your native tongue, and your ideals match those of Europe.
Still, you have yet to provide me with the primary sources about the attempted coup against Roosevelt.

Regards,
Ka Plewy

[ManOWar2]

I agree with most of all I have read.

It's all bout "non-comprehension".

For my other friend again :


America influence may be strong.


but dont be "blind"

America started to left isolationism in 20th century only, mostly because of the "idealism" Wilson doctrine.

They done lot of things, that wasnt necessary good.

American of 1960's, is very different from the american we saw rising after the end of cold war.

New ideology, new fundamentalism vision.. (much more extremism than neo-conservative)


People interest with good texte of Robert Keohane, Joseph S. Nye, Henry Kissinger, Ikenberry ?

I have some good political science paper from Harvard and other "great" high school of USA.



Most of my argue and most of the things I'm saying here or anywhere about americans are the common fact recognized by most of all americans specialist in this domain. (there is a minority of neo-conservative writter who dont agree, but most of neo-conservative thinker always make an abstract of fact and just go with their opinion, what is actually not very scientific...okay, human science always have a bit of subjectivity...but we have no choice we still human hehehe)

Send me an email on : michaeltuqam@yahoo.ca

if you want good things to read

I study "political science" so I'm sometimes "forced" to read lot of things.

do we say political science or science political ? or is that a word ?

How you call this field of study in english ? thanks

[ManOWar2]

I must admit I dont know the "official" data for the number I told you.

Will ask next thursday to the Doctor (teacher) that gaved me this on a simple paper that he wrote. He may tell me where to look by myself, at least wich "book" or wich 'institute.

But If you speak Russian or german, consult their national archives, I know he got those statistics from there.