Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ideal Social Engineering Settings

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Ideal Social Engineering Settings

    This has probably been asked before, but...

    What kind of faction would you prefer living in? Or, to be more precise, which SE choices would you like your faction leaders to have made? Obviously, when I ask this question, it assumes that you live in [Insert Faction Here] as a common Worker, not a Talent, not a Drone and most certainly not a faction leader.

    For me it's actually quite simple, if predictable:

    Politics Democracy:
    Bit of a no-brainer this one. Since I like to be able to have an opinion of my own, Police State and Fundamentalism get instantly discarded. Besides, I like having the illusion I actually get something to say about the governmental process.

    Economy Green:
    All Economy models are reasonable in way or the other. However, the rampant capitalism of Free Market makes it a bad choice. If you don't manage to make it big, you're looking at a real minimum-wage job or a lifetime of ruthlessly pursuing your Career and watching out for others that are equally ruthless. Besides, there are some days that I don't want to eat at McDonalds, after all.
    Planned, on the other hand, was a very tempting choice indeed since the equality it seemingly offers provides all necessities for everyone (even though there may be lots of bureaucratic red tape).
    However, I went with Green because, although it doesn't offer quite the same level of equality as Planned and certainly doesn't offer the (very slim) opportunity of lots of profit of Free Market, it is more sensible. Especially since it diminishes the chances of you getting wiped out by a mindworm boil.

    Values Knowledge:
    Power is just a big no. Even though I sometimes run Power to balance out Democracy and Eudaimonic, militarism just isn't me. Besides, so far, no civilisation glorifying physical strength has survived for long periods of time.
    Wealth, well, it's just too materialistic and decadent. Sure, I won't deny that money is a very pleasent thing to have, but it shouldn't be the sole aim of an entire society.
    Knowledge, fortunately, is not the lesser of three evils, provided we're not talking University style research here. The pursuit of technological progress and intelectual human development is an admirable goal indeed in my opinion.

    Future Society Eudaimonic:
    I can be short about why I don't want Thought Control: I like having an opinion of my own. Of course, perhaps, with Thought Control my needs for individuality get supressed and I'd be quite the happy little drone on the outside. However, getting reduced to an automaton is not my idea of a good time and there's always the chance that some part of me is forever aware that there really is a "me" and rages at the rest of my subdued mind. So... no thank you.
    Cybernetic is a reasonably attractive option. Logical and rational, a cybernetic society may be able to efficiently cater to the populace, especially if the people are enhanced through artificial means. However, it would also be cold, sterile and soulless which is not particularly attractive.
    Eudaimonic, then, is the favoured choice. Having a government that recognises the importance of individuality, creativity and personal growth seems pretty damn nifty to me. If I wanted to, I could augment myself with an MMI, but I could also try my hand at art or research whatever I wanted to without the government dictating what to research (although they're probably keeping a close eye on the willingness of any test subjects). The downside, perhaps, would be getting a lot of slackers who just sit around all day smoking the Planet equivalent of pot, but I think that's a small price to pay.
    Last edited by WotanAnubis; August 7, 2004, 12:54.
    "I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female me!"

  • #2
    Good choices I'm quite sure many people here would pick the same settings (except that I would rather pick Cybernetic.)

    Comment


    • #3
      well, police-planned-power-tought control:
      you don't have to think or make choices, just do what they tell u to do. No anger, no fear, no failures ... ah that would be fun
      http://www.danasoft.com/sig/scare2140.jpg

      Comment


      • #4
        demo-green on one of the manifolds because I don't like the idea of being eaten by mindworms, but FM anywhere "normal"-either power or knowledge, depending on who the neighbors are-no future society: I consider eudaemonic flawed and unworkable and the others unpleasant.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wouldn't the common worker be fairly well off under FM ? its just the drones who are poor and therefore rebelling
          Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outward, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendant, and to embrace them is to acheive enlightenment.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Lazerus
            Wouldn't the common worker be fairly well off under FM ? its just the drones who are poor and therefore rebelling
            Dunno really. Think about capitalism without any kinds of unions or the government providing services like healthcare, infrastructure, electricity and police.
            Only if you, as a worker, never ever ever get ill or get an accident or get fired then you're reasonably well off.
            However, should you happen to find yourself unemployed with some kind of work-related injury you can kiss your reasonable lifestyle goodbye and say hello to poverty.
            Well, unless you happen to be a millionaire.
            "I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female me!"

            Comment


            • #7
              Fundamentalism is the ideal government. To have everyone fanatically devoted to a certain cause will both provide everyone with a distinct sense of purpose and duty, and will also go a long way towards making one strong. Failing Fundamentalism, I'd go for police state, for some of the same reasons. Democracy is too slow and too inefficient in reality, and can only exist until people realize that they can vote themselves money from the treasury. Once they realize this, they will always elect leaders who promise them the most money.

              Planned for economy. I'll take the careful considerations and the fair issuing of goods and services over rampant capitalism, any day. Green is a close competitor, though. One thing people need to understand is that capitalism leads to the ****ing over of just about everyone. Look into 19th century industrial age factories, if you don't believe me.

              Power for values. Wealth is simply too bourgeoise, and knowledge, while a good choice, is simply trumped by Power. After all, knowing stuff and being rich won't help you when your neighbors arrive with an army. In the end, all of politics boils down to power, anyways.

              Future society: Thought Control. All solid choices, though. Cybernetic allows for some nifty benefits, and Thought Control solves all problems of crime, greed, hate... all the problems of human nature. Thought control is the one way to effectively establish a perfect and harmonious society. Eudaimonic, though, creates a populace that is far too soft, and will be incapable of dealing harshly with its deviants and with external enemies.

              Comment


              • #8
                If you look at life as just a measure of how much pleasure vs. pain you endure, then police state/planned/power/thought control would give you the most benefits, because as long as you did what you were told and didn't interfere with things, your path would be completely laid out before you, and you'd just have to stick with your routine. The chief pleasures in this society would be family, sex, getting enough food to eat, having some simple friends, and generally small and simple things like that. Although if you happened to get a maniacal dictator, instead of the benevolent "philosopher king" type, then your life could be living hell, and there would be nothing you could do about that. Basically, life would be easier, but you'd really be taking a chance on what kind of ruler you got.

                However, if you think that physical pleasure isn't enough for happiness, and that you'd need wisdom, free thinking, creative expression, and stuff like that to make you happy, then demo/green/knowledge/eudaimonia would be your best choice. In this society, if things were bad, (there would always be at least something bad, with everyone's conflicting views of how society should be) then you'd have the power to change it. In this society, life would be harder, but if you got stuck in a bad situation, you'd have the power to do something about it.

                Sometimes I feel like I would prefer living in the first society, but then other times, I think I would like the second better. I guess it all depends on how lazy I'm feeling at the moment.

                Edit: Here's a question to ponder: Would you like to be a genejack?
                Pro: Life would always be pleasurable, as there's nothing you desire more than to perform your work.
                Con: You'd have no freedom of thought.

                And is it really tyranny to bioengineer people in such a way? In a way, you're doing them a favor, because you are ensuring them a pleasurable, or happy life. But on the other hand, you're removing their ability for free thought. Would you rather have free thought and pain, or no free thought and pleasure? Good ol' Shen-Ji Yang might be on to something here...

                Here's Yang's quote, just for reference:

                "My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack, specially designed for labor. The Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing but to perform his duty. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"
                Last edited by Zeiter; August 7, 2004, 20:00.
                Civ IV is digital crack. If you are a college student in the middle of the semester, don't touch it with a 10-foot pole. I'm serious.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Demo/FM/no preference on values/cybernetic or Eudiamonia would be my ideal setup.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Democracy/Green/Knowledge (possibly wealth)/Eudaimonic

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Zeiter
                      If you look at life as just a measure of how much pleasure vs. pain you endure, then police state/planned/power/thought control would give you the most benefits, because as long as you did what you were told and didn't interfere with things, your path would be completely laid out before you, and you'd just have to stick with your routine. The chief pleasures in this society would be family, sex, getting enough food to eat, having some simple friends, and generally small and simple things like that. Although if you happened to get a maniacal dictator, instead of the benevolent "philosopher king" type, then your life could be living hell, and there would be nothing you could do about that. Basically, life would be easier, but you'd really be taking a chance on what kind of ruler you got.

                      However, if you think that physical pleasure isn't enough for happiness, and that you'd need wisdom, free thinking, creative expression, and stuff like that to make you happy, then demo/green/knowledge/eudaimonia would be your best choice. In this society, if things were bad, (there would always be at least something bad, with everyone's conflicting views of how society should be) then you'd have the power to change it. In this society, life would be harder, but if you got stuck in a bad situation, you'd have the power to do something about it.

                      Sometimes I feel like I would prefer living in the first society, but then other times, I think I would like the second better. I guess it all depends on how lazy I'm feeling at the moment.

                      Edit: Here's a question to ponder: Would you like to be a genejack?
                      Pro: Life would always be pleasurable, as there's nothing you desire more than to perform your work.
                      Con: You'd have no freedom of thought.

                      And is it really tyranny to bioengineer people in such a way? In a way, you're doing them a favor, because you are ensuring them a pleasurable, or happy life. But on the other hand, you're removing their ability for free thought. Would you rather have free thought and pain, or no free thought and pleasure? Good ol' Shen-Ji Yang might be on to something here...

                      Here's Yang's quote, just for reference:

                      "My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack, specially designed for labor. The Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing but to perform his duty. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"
                      Good analysis, I'm proud of you. -pats on back-

                      People don't need complex intellectual freedoms to be happy. I certainly don't.

                      I don't think any of the faction leaders in Alpha Centauri are maniacal dictators, and in reality, a maniacal dictator abusing his power in such a way is not likely to hold it for long. A dictator like Yang, however, is.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by redazncommieDXP
                        People don't need complex intellectual freedoms to be happy. I certainly don't.
                        Perhaps not. But people do need complex intellectual freedom if they ever want to get somewhere. In the "easy" Police State/Planned/Power/Thought Control there would never ever be even a remote chance of someone like Shakespeare or Newton or Einstein or Kant or FDR.
                        Or, for that matter, Sid Meier and Brian Reynolds.

                        There would be progress, perhaps, but it'd be incredibly slow and it would only be scientific progress while humanity's progress halts. (Well, humanity's progress towards being something other than mindless automatons.)
                        "I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female me!"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by -SafaN-
                          well, police-planned-power-tought control:
                          you don't have to think or make choices, just do what they tell u to do. No anger, no fear, no failures ... ah that would be fun
                          Ummh.. oh, wait... just think of that horrible inefficiency! And personality cult too!

                          Probably the government would tell you which kind of education you will have, and after that you would have to work in a workplace choosed by the government. Your house or apartment would also be given to you by the state, and food would be distributed equally to the population in a carefully regulated portions. That is, unless there are occasionally famines because of the breakdowns in a planned food distribution system.

                          And they would be quite common because government spends huge amounts of resources on the military. That means you would have a 3-year military service, and your country's ruler would not hesitate to use the army should any need arise (it's not like he's going to ask any permission from the people.) If you disagreed with him, you could simply disappear in the night, leaving your relatives wonder where you have gone. But luckily many people won't just suddenly vanish, because population is continiously brainwashed to fanatically support their leader. His pictures would "decorate" every street in the nation and occasionally you would see huge, magnificient statues in parks entirely devoted to the "great leader". The ruling party would probably organize propaganda-like mass-performances where people would shout jingoistic slogans to express their support to the ruler.
                          Last edited by logic_error; August 8, 2004, 21:01.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, I'd prefer "frontier-simple-none-survival"!

                            Just kidding - at reality I'd like ti live in:

                            Demo - FM - Wealth - Eudaimonic
                            ..
                            well, maybe a bit different..
                            -- What history has taught us is that people do not learn from history.
                            -- Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by binTravkin
                              Well, I'd prefer "frontier-simple-none-survival"!
                              Actually, that should be "Frontier-Simple-Survival-None"
                              "I'm too young and too male to be the mother of a seventeen year old female me!"

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X