Ideal Social Engineering Settings

[Sikander]

Originally posted by livid imp
Here is my main problem with large government conspiracy theory: Large Government.

When it comes to getting the mail or processing our taxes, everyone swears up and down that the US is totally incompetent, inefficient, and unimaginative. Yet if we are talking about the very same government faking landings on the moon, suddenly they are sophisticated super sleuths, capable not only of tricking thousands of non-fringe scientists and engineers, but also keep every single person involved totally silent about it, even on their dead beds.

If the US government was this good at staging historical events, why didn't they stage the finding of "weapons of mass destruction" to the world? By comparison, that would have been a cake walk to fake and would have did a lot more for foreign reputation.

Do I believe that governments will lie to the public? Absolutely.

Will they go out of their way to omit or cover up evidence? Yup.

Has the US government put satellite tracking devices in our dental fillings? Some how, I just don't see it happening.

A little information theory goes a long way.

[girlfight_club]

I shall have your files on Orbital Spaceflight (D6), and I shall have them now.

Originally posted by binTravkin


Well the talk was going on about the stars on Moon, so when you mentioned clouds I assumed you think there are some on Moon. If you read more carefully there was not a single sentence about stars on Earth, except that they can be photographed on Earth (so why there are no stars on Moon landscape photos?).

Granted that the question is worth answering, scientific method requires you to come up with more than just assertions based on the starless photos that the entire Apollo program was a hoax.

I'm assuming you're discounting Apollos 11-17 (including the infamous Apollo 13), but what about Apollo 8-10? Has man orbited the moon? How about Apollo 1? Must we assume foul play, that the astronauts knew too much, and had to be blown up on the pad?

Has man ever been in space at all? This amazing webpage reveals all the assertions you'll ever need whenever you run out of tinfoil:

Soviet Cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin was never in Space

(http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/gagarin.htm)

BTW, I've worked alongside one of the old timer engineers of the sixties, and he told me of the big layoffs after Apollo shut down. The tech job market collapsed in the mid-1970s, and he had to go into restaurant management! No, an entire generation was recruited to put people in space, and on the lunar surface. This isn't some cheesy Capricorn One stunt. Tens of thousands of highly educated people were employed.

Not to sound all Republican, but maybe all this rant against the moonshots is just your envy of another country's achievements. You're welcome to your illusions, but do not fool yourself just for your own comfort's sake.


Maybe the "lunar hoax" business is simple generational envy. No one today has done better than the '60s generation in that respect. It's frustrating that it's taken so long to revisit this zenith of exploration.


But hey, the first submarine was built in 1620. That took awhile to catch on, too.


Oh, and the stars seen in space are in the same positions as on Earth, or the Moon, to the naked eye. Every photo could have been easily faked.


Almost all the stars would even be in same positions over the skies of Chiron. It's just not that far away.

There would only be two major differences: The suns of Alpha Centauri, and one new star in the sky: Sol.


GFC

[binTravkin]

But hey, the first submarine was built in 1620.

Actually in 1353 by Mongols somewhere near Black Sea

Oh, and the stars seen in space are in the same positions as on Earth, or the Moon, to the naked eye. Every photo could have been easily faked.

Almost all the stars would even be in same positions over the skies of Chiron. It's just not that far away.

Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern?

Earth moves, Moon moves, Chiron moves.
So if you stay on the pole of Moon/Earth/Chiron you wont see the same.
You may see familiar figures, but they will be turned in different angles so at first glance you may not recognise them.

And about the link you gave - quite interesting, but I cant find anymore about this theme (once did a search).

[binTravkin]

Two paragraphs I liked the most..

A British team of researchers who questions the propaganda surrounding manned journeys to the moon also confirms this information.

The CIA knew about the Gagarin bluff but said nothing. Instead they have come up with more and more ridiculous lies themselves. (Juri Lina, Architects of Deception. The Concealed History of Freemasonry. Referent Publishing Stockholm, 2004. p. 26-29).

[Chaos Theory]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern?

Earth moves, Moon moves, Chiron moves.
So if you stay on the pole of Moon/Earth/Chiron you wont see the same.
You may see familiar figures, but they will be turned in different angles so at first glance you may not recognise them.

The change in the positions of the Earth and Moon have negligible results on the relative positions of stars. For any view of the stars on the Moon, there is a place on Earth that has that same view at some point in the year (excluding the Sun).

[GeoModder]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Have you heard that stars on the Southern Hemisphere differ from those of Northern?

What are you talking about? What difference? I just came back from the southern hemisphere (and been there five times already) and they didn't look different to me. I could see a lot more of them then at home here due to a lot less light pollution down under.

Or are you talking about constellations ?

[Commy]

Star constellations don't immediately change when moving from one hemi-sphere to another. North pole vs south pole produces huge differences, but moving from Mexico to Peru, you will, for the most part, see the same things, just at a slightly different angle...

...as far as a fake moon landing...well, it sounds very similiar plot to Deception Point by Dan Brown...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Commy

...as far as a fake moon landing...well, it sounds very similiar plot to Deception Point by Dan Brown...

Or the Seventies feature film, 'Capricorn One' :

Would you be shocked to find out that the greatest moment of our recent history may not have happened at all?


" At NASA's Mission Control, the first manned space flight to Mars is about to blast off.But as its three astronauts (James Brolin, O J Simpson and Sam Waterston) await their historic voyage, a mysterious man enters the craft and insists they leave. He explains that the spacecraft is dangerously flawed. The mission, however, must be seen to go ahead, otherwise the government will stop funding the space programme. In a television studio the astronauts are coerced through threats and bribery to make a broadcasts as if they were on the Red Planet.Everyone seems to accept this, except for journalist Robert Caulfield (Elliot Gould), who becomes suspicious and sets out to find the truth..."

http://www.mywickedgames.com/dvd-capricorn-one.htm

[sufthingol]

Fund and Police are unacceptable, imo. Stuart Mill said that in order for the human race to 'flourish', people must be free to deviate and show the masses 'the way forward'. This requires a FREE society: and that means Demo.

Free Market leads to the strongest economy, but does the most eco damage. Planned is good for economy and doesn't do too much damage (the best choice for balancing). Green leads to a weak economy. How can you hold the economic or military hegemony if you're weak? Planned.

(We'll begin to see Demo/Planned type states in about 30 years in europe. At the moment, they're all Demo/Free Market, though not heavily free market.)

My ideals are always in anything that helps humans to flourish. But at the same time, I want the country I'm living in to be able to defend itself. Knowledge is romantic, but not a good choice until all states become demo and stop attacking each other. For the time being: Power.

Future: Cybernetic & Eudaemonic. Both would be ideal, but if I had to choose, I'd go with Cybernetic. Anything that gives me improved longevity and ability for leverage is a plus. Though Control is too sinister.

[Commy]

Demo, Free Market, Knowledge, Cybernetic...

-5 police
-2 support
-2 probe
-1 planet

If you are playing the angels like I do, the probe is cancelled out, leaving you with -5 police, -2 support, and only -1 planet...not bad, especially with probe teams...

[WotanAnubis]

Ye Gods, an actual answer to the actual original topic. I'm stunned. Shocked, even.

Originally posted by sufthingol
Fund and Police are unacceptable, imo. Stuart Mill said that in order for the human race to 'flourish', people must be free to deviate and show the masses 'the way forward'. This requires a FREE society: and that means Demo.

Well, no argument there.

Free Market leads to the strongest economy, but does the most eco damage. Planned is good for economy and doesn't do too much damage (the best choice for balancing). Green leads to a weak economy. How can you hold the economic or military hegemony if you're weak? Planned.

Who says that Green leads to a weak economy. In game terms Green is highly efficient, saving lots of valuable energy credits in the long run. Planned, however, is quite wasteful - your industry may become a powerhouse, but the treasury won't exactly be filled up.
I'm not saying Planned is the weakest, but both Green and Planned are fairly resilient in different areas of the economy.

My ideals are always in anything that helps humans to flourish. But at the same time, I want the country I'm living in to be able to defend itself. Knowledge is romantic, but not a good choice until all states become demo and stop attacking each other. For the time being: Power.

On the other hand, Knowledge gives you a neat little boost in the arms race, which never hurts, whereas Power leaves you with a crippled industry.

Future: Cybernetic & Eudaemonic. Both would be ideal, but if I had to choose, I'd go with Cybernetic. Anything that gives me improved longevity and ability for leverage is a plus. Though Control is too sinister.

Question: What is this "ability for leverage"?

[GeoModder]

Leverage? +2 support at the least.

[ManOWar2]

AS a neigbhour of americans people, and knowing lot of them ( I mean the ordinary american or the middle one) since they like to come in Montréal as tourists, they feel in a mix of an european/north american cities and Montréal is the only place in north america where you can feel that


My point is that most of those peoples are ignorants and they all believe what they're governement is telling them.
They are under constant propaganda. My TV reception cable receive 10 americans news channel, (CNN, ABC, NBC, etc...) I've seen so much horrible things (desinformation) that I could not even imagine before, it's so worst than any media I looked before (actually mexico have a better rate that the US does for liberty of press, U.N. 2003, USA still 35th on 193 country.)

This mass manipulation is all cautionned by usa governement.

We could give lot of example like that, to blame usa, and this is sadly true.

The USA our parents knews under Wilson, is now a things from the past.

[binTravkin]

No comments.

That's what all the world thinks about US, only some individuals from in there try to prove it's not so.

If they're reading this, my best advice to them is to not waste their time trying to argue about it - it's simply obvious.

World knows what's happening in US - we're better informed about yourselves than you do, so dont try to prove opposite and claim that you're still one of the most democratical countries or something equally nonsensible..

[Chaos Theory]

I go about my day without any police interference. I can congregate with others as I see fit. I post my views freely in public fora and read others views. I know enough to not rely too strongly on any particular news source. I do not blindly trust my leaders. I do not live in fear of crime. There are stupid people, but I can oppose them.

Yep, this America is horribly oppressive.

By the way, I have access to just about all the media sources you do, thanks to the internet. No matter how bad American media may be, the people are not oppressed by it when there are other options.