ICS Kind Of Part 2

[smacksim]

Originally posted by Chaos Theory
The whole game would benefit from more continua where now there are steps. Continuous population, resource gathering, energy allocation, inefficiency, hurry costs, etc. Floating-point numbers aren't that scary. Oh well.

Drifting off-topic, but that's the fun part

Cheers to that thought. The few games that do this are so much more fun, IMO. I think the developers tend to stay away from continuous systems because it intimidates the players. There's a huge element of 'Don't make it too complicated, or we'll lose our customer base'. Which is just what apparently happened with Smac. Many people say 'It's too complex'. Silly.

The only two strategy games similar to Smac that had continous functions for resources that I know of are "Pax Imperia I" in ship design, "MOO I" to a very small degree in random planets, and "Conquest of the New World", which has continuous resources. It's a great game in terms of city-building because of that, but the overall game seems quite unfinished and isn't really enjoyable for strategy. I'll bet a few of the more modern games are continous as well. So yeah, there's nothing preventing that from being brought into Smac/Civ, but it won't happen because it's too 'complex', methinks.

[logic_error]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Hey why do you discuss so much about thos layouts?

the simplest, the most boreholed, the most useful, the most productive, the most fast-expanding layout is this:

BCBC
NNNN
BCBC
NNNN

We've already discussed about that in another thread. It's the ugliest base layout ever! It also crams bases in so ridiculously small space that they stay tiny forever. And if you want to build any facilities on your bases, you get much less benefit compared to more spacious base layouts.

[Natalinasmpf]

But then that wouldn't be ICS....

[binTravkin]

We've already discussed about that in another thread. It's the ugliest base layout ever! It also crams bases in so ridiculously small space that they stay tiny forever. And if you want to build any facilities on your bases, you get much less benefit compared to more spacious base layouts.

1st - once you get OrbSpcFl your bases are up to size 10-11
2nd - not building facilities (only creche & somesuch) is very fun and very cheap and very useful in MP games when you must act fast not to delay the game

3rd - It's INCREDIBLY poweful!

But everyone has rights think different, of course..

[logic_error]

Yes, it's an powerful ICS. But it looks so damn ugly. And besides, I'm a builder player by nature.

[binTravkin]

I'm a builder player by nature.

But I'm an idealist builder!

Imagine if only 1 worker per city would work and the others be Librarians/doctors

Imagine that city has 10*x citizens
and only 1*x citizens really work hard (in borehole) & everything else is produced automatically by robots/automatic factories..

That'd solve 2 most annoying probs in big cities:

1.overcrowding (10*x citizens compared to at least 30 if city uses it's possible radius)

2.unwillingness to work hard physical labor.. & willingness to do "what I want"
(imagine 90% of pop being scientists!)

But it looks so damn ugly.

..and I think it looks very nice!

[Nabvrimn]

One thing nobody's adressing: how do these patterns work out before boreholes and condensors become available. If wide spacing is better in the opening stages it wins out because that's when games are usually won.

[logic_error]

Originally posted by Nabvrimn
One thing nobody's adressing: how do these patterns work out before boreholes and condensors become available. If wide spacing is better in the opening stages it wins out because that's when games are usually won.

I guess you just have to collect a couple of artifacts (for production rushing) and rely on getting the Weather Paradigm.

[Chaos Theory]

Or just rely on forests. 3 forests + rec tanks will support 3 population, which can be controlled (post-bureaucracy) by one of:

Rec commons + police
Lots of police
Rec commons + research hospitals
Rec commons + PTS
Rec commons + HGP
Net nodes + VW + something

You end up with a bunch of cities producing 8 minerals and 5-14 energy (depending on econ rating), with minimal facilities (usually rec commons and something). Yang with police and Zak with VW and PTS are particularly good at this.

[Nabvrimn]

Another thought: A condensor+enricher+farm produces 6 food, which with sats adds six to your pop, raising your sat limit by 6. It therefore really gives you 6 min, 6 energy, and 6 specialists. A borehole produces 6 min and 6 energy. Orbital solar collectors can be destroyed by random events. If you don't use them a super farm gives only 6 min and 7* specialists. The specialists presumably engineers which procuce 5 energy each. Mineral production is then the same for boreholes and super farms post SAM, and energy production for super farms is 35 to a borehole's mere 6, even if you build no solar sats. Base squares produce half the food and would have to produce 20 energy and 3 minerals to compensate**, therefore low base density is most beneficial in terms of raw mineral and energy production in the endgame. The endgame is not terribly relevant, but when you reach it you should fill in all your boreholes.


* the worker that would work the square can be replaced with a crawler

** this is, of course, impossible except with +3 or more econ during a solar flare

[Chaos Theory]

Until you can breach hab limits, boreholes are still very nice. After that, it's 5 turns to transcendence.

[binTravkin]

One thing nobody's adressing: how do these patterns work out before boreholes and condensors become available. If wide spacing is better in the opening stages it wins out because that's when games are usually won.

By placing your CP 2 turns after it is created (2 tiles away) you're sure to get turn advantage which, in turn leads you to EcoEng first, thus giving you the needed Boreholes & Condensers, If you're playing Morgan you'll need also clean reators, but theyre not too far away from EcoEng!

Especially effective if you get a few min/nut bonuses/monoliths around landing site..

Games are won by turn advantage!

[binTravkin]

Another thought: A condensor+enricher+farm produces 6 food, which with sats adds six to your pop, raising your sat limit by 6. It therefore really gives you 6 min, 6 energy, and 6 specialists. A borehole produces 6 min and 6 energy. Orbital solar collectors can be destroyed by random events. If you don't use them a super farm gives only 6 min and 7* specialists. The specialists presumably engineers which procuce 5 energy each. Mineral production is then the same for boreholes and super farms post SAM, and energy production for super farms is 35 to a borehole's mere 6, even if you build no solar sats. Base squares produce half the food and would have to produce 20 energy and 3 minerals to compensate**, therefore low base density is most beneficial in terms of raw mineral and energy production in the endgame. The endgame is not terribly relevant, but when you reach it you should fill in all your boreholes.


* the worker that would work the square can be replaced with a crawler

** this is, of course, impossible except with +3 or more econ during a solar flare

To win, you do not need to efficently use space, but to build up very fast - time is the key, not effective placement!

You seem to not have played MP with veterans -> you'd see that such calculations as "this layout is not effective because it makes you lose 6nuts, therefore 3 specialists, therefore blahblah" are useless because by the time those 6 nuts will matter, you will be no more, as some other player has had a different idea
"why must I build EBank for 80mins, when I can build CP for 30 mins and have even better effect in the early & mid-game?!"

There's no place for perfection/idealism in real life/game - there's only place for maths & strats!

[Chaos Theory]

There's plenty of room for perfection/idealism in a game if you are either much better than your opponents, or they do it too.

[binTravkin]

There's plenty of room for perfection/idealism in a game if you are either much better than your opponents, or they do it too.

1.if I am much better I usually try to use my ICS1x1 to take them out ASAP

2.if they "do it too", this is their worst mistake - I derive fun from having all I need at a lowest cost I can buy it, not from building "the nicest and most perfect faction ever", thus I have an advantage that gives me victory or at least great power

However - Im sure that citizens which live in my factions are quite happy with their lives as the only worker in a city is usually a talent and all the others are some kind of special staff, thus they don't care..

Plus: giving the amount of food they have and the space (cities are rarely overcrowded)..