ICS Kind Of Part 2

[TimeTraveler]

Originally posted by logic_error
I just realized there's a lot simpler-looking pattern compared to my previous one:

.B.....B....
.C.BCB.C.BCB
.B.....B....
....B.....B.
BCB.C.BCB.C.
....B.....B.
.B.....B....
.C.BCB.C.BCB
.B.....B....

Maybe I should make a Perl program to calculate all the possible variations. I wonder how many alternatives there are.

I found one alternative that may be quite useful. It holds the same borehole density as the others and allows for some flexibility when one tile or every other tile in a row has a lot of fungus or rockiness or is in the ocean.

B.B.B.B.B.B.
.C..C..C..C.
B.B.B.B.B.B.
............
BCB.C.BCB.C.
............
B.B.B.B.B.B.
.C..C..C..C.
B.B.B.B.B.B.

B.B.B.B.B.B.
.C..C..C..C.
.B.B.B.B.B.B
............
BCB.C.BCB.C.
............
B.B.B.B.B.B.
.C..C..C..C.
B.B.B.B.B.B.

Some variations of the grid don't even have to be consistent across the map.
B.B.B.B.B.B.
.C..C..C..C.
B.B.B.B.B...
..........B.
BC.BCB.CB.C.
..........B
B.B.B.B.B...
.C..C..C..C.
B.B.B.B.B.B.

I know that the grid discussion looks to be over in this thread, but I figured I could still point something out.

[Chaos Theory]

logic_error: your chart and my math both make the approach to double population look like a gradual one, but remember that the game works in discrete quantities, and when you're pop booming, a surplus of just 2 nutrients (which can be arbitrarily smaller than N) is enough to increase the base population. Thus, you approach 2N at a rate of 1 per turn, except for the last pop point, which requires growing on 1 surplus nutrient.

In other words, the time from N to 1.5N is longer than the time from 1.5N to 1.75N, so even though you go through increasingly many lines on your chart, the time to grow a pop point does not rise. In this sense, it's kind of like Zeno's paradox.

[logic_error]

@Chaos Theory:

Yep, I empirically verified that building enough satellites exactly doubles a base's population.

The thing that confused me was that I wondered whether the final nutrient surplus stays at +1 (so pop=2n-1, no further growth possible) or +0 (pop = exactly 2n). Maybe I try to think in a too complicated way.

[Whoha]

You have +1 nuts. This causes growth which brings in another person, who causes another orbital nut to come down. That nut + the original +1 supports the last person.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Whoha
Satelites also fix that damned alternating growth/starvation deally that has plagued civ.

I always wondered why the hell they ever had that problem in the first place. An FOP whose only function is to support and grow population, why increment it in halves at all?

[Chaos Theory]

Well, would the game be better off if every tile were either arid, rainy, or condensor-farmed (0, 2, or 4)? I think not. Allowing forests, for example, to provide just 1 food forces choices between growth and other production. Making forests produce 0-2-1 when boreholes produce 0-6-6 would be pretty weird. They'd just be more appealing targets for crawlers.

[logic_error]

Originally posted by Whoha
You have +1 nuts. This causes growth which brings in another person, who causes another orbital nut to come down. That nut + the original +1 supports the last person.

But you cannot population boom unless you have +2 nutrients, do you? Watching some size 30 city to normally grow one pop unit with +1 nutrient surplus takes, well... forever.

[Whoha]

No you can't boom unless you use a crawler to bring in 1 more nut temporarily.

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Sikander


I always wondered why the hell they ever had that problem in the first place. An FOP whose only function is to support and grow population, why increment it in halves at all?

settlers eat 1 or 2 food depending on government, I guess it was done to make things easier for the eariler ones.

[Qwerty88]

Originally posted by logic_error

But you cannot population boom unless you have +2 nutrients, do you? Watching some size 30 city to normally grow one pop unit with +1 nutrient surplus takes, well... forever.

build a colony pod, the bas shrinks one size, population booms back up (+2 nut) and use the pod to grow it one more.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Whoha


settlers eat 1 or 2 food depending on government, I guess it was done to make things easier for the eariler ones.

In Civ 1 they ate one food only IIRC. My guess is that they wanted to boost the number of nutrients in order for the railroad to be able to boost in tile productivity by 50%. They would have been a lot better off simply by allowing fractional nutrient resources and have been done with it. Boy was that game flawed in so many ways, and look how vast the consequences of those decisions have been with the zillion successor games all trying to compensate in one way or another. Two of the best attempts have been SMAC (obviously) and Colonization.

[Chaos Theory]

The whole game would benefit from more continua where now there are steps. Continuous population, resource gathering, energy allocation, inefficiency, hurry costs, etc. Floating-point numbers aren't that scary. Oh well.

[#endgame]

Technological advance Improving Civ games is an inherently iterative process.
One does not simply take sand from the beach Civ 1 and produce a Dataprobe Alpha Centauri.
We use crude tools learn from old games to fashion better tools games, and then our better
tools games to fashion more precise tools fun games, and so on. Each minor refinement
is a step in the process, and all of the steps must be taken.

-- Chairman Sheng-ji Yang,
"Looking God in the Eye"

[Natalinasmpf]

I think I have to quote that. Very true indeed. Except you could replace "Alpha Centauri" with Alien Crossfire, since its slightly more advanced.

[binTravkin]

Hey why do you discuss so much about thos layouts?

the simplest, the most boreholed, the most useful, the most productive, the most fast-expanding layout is this:

BCBC
NNNN
BCBC
NNNN

and so on in all the directions

each base has 2condensers, 1 borehole
11 nuts till enrichers/nutsats
7mins till minsats, mineral facilities, Bulk Matter Transmitter
6 + economy (+1) + base output (HUGE for MORGAN) energy unless you build all those cute energy facilities which are useless in this layout because building 1more base gives you much more surplus than one more Energy Bank and is WAY cheaper!

Hough!