My current AC game...

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Straybow
Sven is too easy; Sea Colonies are too powerful. You get the equivalent of two Base Facilities free. You get a Pressure Dome for free, and the Pressure Dome doubles as Recycling Tanks.

You're DEAD wrong. Sven is horrible in the early game, having to lurch onto land as soon as possible in order to be even vaguely competitive. The additional resource advantage offered by sea colonies is offset by the fact that building them, planting them and defending them is much harder than land-based bases. Land bases can be roaded together so that several units can be retasked to defend multiple bases from incursion. In order to do the same at sea, you must build considerably more expensive foil units as guards. Sea terraforming is much less effective in the early game due to resource caps, limited options, and poor overall mineral production. Finally, thin expansion in the early game is wildly risky, as unguarded bases can be mauled by native units with no warning, so your allegedly more flexible growth is stunted by having to defend virtually everywhere.

Yes, the sea start is effective in lending you relative immunity from harrassment by a hostile AI, much like beginning on your own continent with any of the other, better factions. However, a competent human builder player will blow clear past you in technology and growth, clinch a bevvy of early SPs and rocket up to D:AP. At that point, the mobility advantage of sea units shrivel into insignificance, and you'll soon watch your indefensible sea-empire get carved up by an armada of choppers and 4/4 foils.

[Commy]

Got to agree with you, the whole point of the game is to have fun. FUN FUN FUN!!! Firaxis didn't waste a whole bunch of time to make a video game so people could argue about how you should have this and this and this by the year 2160 and this and this and this by the year 6789 and on and on and on...

Not that Firaxis really cares, after all, they still make money...

But anyway, the Pirates may look enticing (does that sound right?) at first because of all of there aquatic advantages, but honestly, have you ever considered how the AI feels having some water maniac constantly bombing their coast with 50 cruisers every turn? I mean, come on man, how would you like it if some water maniac like yourself did that to you? Don't like it, do you? First suggestion: don't play pirates; they're mean and annoying.

And by the way, do you have any remorse for the AI? Why do you have to such a bully to them? It's not their fault that they're stupid, it's firaxis's fault (suddenly Commy goes and planet busts the sid and brian factions...), so Planet Bust them, not the Progenitors. What did those poor, poor aliens every do to you? How would you like it if you came home and found a bunch of HUMANS taking over your home? Especially a bunch of insane maniacs like Svensgard (or however you spell his name) or that fungus boy that looks Chinese.

But anyway, coming from my perspective and lack of skill, I'd have to say it was a pretty good game, but when compared to people who win Ascent to Transcendance in the year 2200, I have to say, even though I suck myself, practice, practice, practice...

And I'm serious about bombing Firaxis, you know they deserve it...

[fender]

It doesn't matter what I think or they think. What do you think? If you enjoyed the game you're a winner. That's it.
If you want my opinion though. I have only two problems with your game. Not contacting other factions early, and the year. The factions thing is maybe part of your style, but it sure took a long time to win. Try for mid 2300's for starts.
Have fun and enjoy

[binTravkin]

2160

Hey this thread has come to an conclusion which states:

Game is for fun, not for maths!

But I say:

If maths/strats are in your head, youre the winner & to win is much more fun than just to play!

In SP maybe youre winner even without b-lines, ICS & other math/strat based thingies, but its much more fun to play MP & way much more fun to WIN MP

And anyway -> if you've come to strategy section, means you want to learn something new & that "something" we're gonna show you!

I played a HIVE ICS game last nite & that's what I came up to:

2154 = 30 bases
2156 = IA
2160 = 36 bases (30+ )
2165 = 44 bases

Im not a good hiverian, it was the 1st time I played hive after ages of not playing it, & the 1st time I ICSed with hive, so any other more devout hiverian, like Lazerus will show you even better results!

Also it was SP, so it was slower than most MPs

&that ICS was achieved without help of PTS or any other ICS-helping SP, because the 1st SP I built was in 60's -> that was VW, then PTS & then MCC

In MPs I wouldnt even get them, because they'd be built in 40's or 50's!

If Morgan/Uni are played right with ICS, they can achieve even better results as techspeed is 4-5 times better till specialists become abundant (then ~2times)

See attachment for autosaves from 2130 till 2160:

[binTravkin]

BTW:
Diff transcend
Map huge,
30-50 ocean,
rare natives,
max rain,
min erosion,

all victories, & flexible start enabled,
all other options -> left unchecked,
faction set: SMAC
game: SMAX

[Straybow]

Pressure domes don't do much for most of the game besides be recycling tanks. Sea colony pods are 4 rows more expensive than colony pods, which is exactly the cost of rec tanks. Furthermore, units are more expensive to rush than facilities. Sven may be good, but you're exaggerating his strengths.

First there is no exaggerating, just as I say Dee is too easy. It's all relative. But there is a strategic advantage. Sea Colonies permit encroachment on the borders of another faction in a way barred on land, yet another benefit that you get for free.

Second, Pressure Dome permits building or survival of a base in the ocean. That is itself a benefit, whereas a base without it is destroyed if terraforming lowers the land or sea levels rise. And remember, unchanged the PD has no maintenance cost, so it is doubly free.

You can say the Pressure Dome itself is only half the cost, the other half being the built-in Rec Tanks. Fine, but it is still a cost that is avoided in building a Sea Colony.

If you say sea pods are 4 rows more than land pods which is the same as Rec Tanks, then they are getting the movement 4 chassis and the PD for free. When Fusion comes the price difference drops to only 2 rows or 1 row (can't remember atm).

You're DEAD wrong. Sven is horrible in the early game, having to lurch onto land as soon as possible in order to be even vaguely competitive.

Against human opponents, undoubtedly true. Playing solo… that's another matter. But my feelings about playing Sven's faction and the cheapness of Sea Colonies are separate and only loosely related (hence the semicolon I used, but that's another matter).

I don't have SMAX installed on this computer yet I patch alpha.txt anyway.

The truth is, it should be way more expensive to establish a sea colony than a colony on land. A pressure dome should be quite expensive to maintain, and every structure should have increase maintenance cost, too. Everything has to be sealed water-tight.

If it were so easy we would be doing it now, or at least the envirowackos who feel we don't deserve to tread upon the precious earth would.

[Chaos Theory]

Pressure domes do indeed permit colonies to exist in the ocean, but they have no bearing on whether the colony can harvest from the ocean. Being able to build a colony on an ocean tile instead of a land tile is helpful, but not greatly so. Being able to survive sea level rises is handy, but that's not an issue until at least past Fusion Power. Being able to survive hostile terraforming is nice, but picking off the terraformers is probably a simpler solution. Furthermore, hostile terraforming is usually very expensive.

Incidentally, a base is not automatically destroyed if it s lowered into water without having a pressure dome. Rather, it loses a little more than half its population and gains a pressure dome. Bases *can* be destroyed like this, but only smaller bases.

With fusion, sea pods cost only 4 rows, but this is not an benefit peculiar to Svensgaard.

The foil chassis is not particularly expensive on most units anyway, so getting it free is not much of a benefit. Furthermore, sea movement cannot be speeded with such things as roads, rivers, and magtubes. Foils can never move 20 tiles.

Sea colonies will let you build next to opponents' empires, but you do so at a risk and a cost. The risk is that your opponent can strike you from an established position while you are trying to establish yourself there. The cost is that you cannot harvest the tiles on the continent, and so have to make do with just ocean, which is difficult.

And I won't even bother to argue realism, because this is a game. Why don't planet busters knock Planet out of its orbit, given the craters they leave?

[Straybow]

Most factions early on don't even have formers yet to build roads, so they're stuck at movement 1 or 2. And I didn't address defense, as this is more applicable to MP rather than SP. But as long as you're talking defense, a Sea Colony can't be taken by a ground troop until you get the special ability.

Sea Colonies can be established in deep water, which can only be improved after expensive raising unavailable until mid-game.

I don't care about "hostile terraforming," only making a point. If you want to build an orbital, you have to have an AC. If you want to survive submersion, you have to have a PDome. Your unprotected base only survives because the game permits the base to instantly cobble together a PDome as the population is ravaged. You still end up with the required PDome.

[Chaos Theory]

A former is one of the first things I try to make, and it is the first thing I make if I start with Centauri Ecology (Deirdre, Zak). Otherwise, I research it first and then start making formers. Roads are one of the first things I create, to speed along colony pods and future formers.

Sea colonies can't be taken by normal land troops, but are much more vulnerable to random native life. Ships are also poor city garrisons, so if you want a good garrison you need a unit that can't move around by itself. This locks down your defenses and prevents you from concentrating them where needed, like you can do with land colonies.

Sea colonies can be established in otherwise useless deep water, but unless they're near some shelf or land tiles, they'll be completely unproductive.

I never, ever build pressure domes in land cities unless they are endangered, and by that point the game might be effectively won, and then I don't care. I wouldn't even spend 1 mineral row for that ability except at the time that I need it.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Unlike most of you, I play my games to have fun. Thus, you won't see me going back 20 turns to move my crawler up so that I can achieve transcendence 1 turn earlier, or anything obsessive like that

I agree 100,000,000,000,000,000%

[CEO Aaron]

Originally posted by Straybow
First there is no exaggerating, just as I say Dee is too easy. It's all relative.

It certainly is, and almost every experienced player here will agree that the drawbacks of oceanic development outweigh any advantages.

Second, Pressure Dome permits building or survival of a base in the ocean. That is itself a benefit, whereas a base without it is destroyed if terraforming lowers the land or sea levels rise. And remember, unchanged the PD has no maintenance cost, so it is doubly free.

It takes a great deal of ecodamage to make a change in sea-levels even remotely relevant. Without the resources from acting as a recycling tank, a pressure dome is only insurance, and insuring against an event that never actually happens is 100% expense. The cost of the pressure dome isn't the upkeep, its the other things you can be doing with the time and minerals you spend building it.

You can say the Pressure Dome itself is only half the cost, the other half being the built-in Rec Tanks. Fine, but it is still a cost that is avoided in building a Sea Colony.

Not avoided, reduced. Sea colonies cost 50% more than their land-based equivalents. Furthermore, every other unit those seabasese will build will also cost 50% more, or be trapped inside the seabase. Just because the costs don't show up on your every-turn balance sheet doesn't mean they aren't there.

If you say sea pods are 4 rows more than land pods which is the same as Rec Tanks, then they are getting the movement 4 chassis and the PD for free.

As I pointed out earlier, the pressure dome doesn't really give you anything substantively better than a land pod, if you exlude the recource boost. You're paying nothing to get virtually nothing, so it's hardly unfair. The movement bonus merely compensates for the fact that you can't build roads in water.

When Fusion comes the price difference drops to only 2 rows or 1 row (can't remember atm).

You're actually building fusion colony pods?

You're DEAD wrong. Sven is horrible in the early game, having to lurch onto land as soon as possible in order to be even vaguely competitive.

Against human opponents, undoubtedly true. Playing solo… that's another matter. But my feelings about playing Sven's faction and the cheapness of Sea Colonies are separate and only loosely related (hence the semicolon I used, but that's another matter).

Any valid comparison can't account for play against the computer. The AI is horrible. Period. Any discussion of the relative merits of a faction MUST be made with the assumption that humans are at the controls, and that the competition is real.

The truth is, it should be way more expensive to establish a sea colony than a colony on land. A pressure dome should be quite expensive to maintain, and every structure should have increase maintenance cost, too. Everything has to be sealed water-tight.

While in terms of realism I might agree with you, balance-wise, I don't think that's a good decision. Sea bases are already quite disadvantaged in comparison to their land-based equivalents, with poor mineral production, feeble defensibility due to a lack of mutual protection, and make the construction of support units commensurately higher. The costs aren't as easy to see, but I assure you they're there.

Most factions early on don't even have formers yet to build roads, so they're stuck at movement 1 or 2. And I didn't address defense, as this is more applicable to MP rather than SP. But as long as you're talking defense, a Sea Colony can't be taken by a ground troop until you get the special ability.

If you're not opening your tech-tree with Centauri Ecology, you're either playing Morgan or losing, and maybe both. And the 'you can't invade without boats' defense is entirely irrelevant when your enemies have Doctrine:Air Power and are picking off your empire one by one.

My point is this: If Sea Colonies are so damned effective, why don't any of the expert players beeline to doctrine flexiblity and start seeding the oceans?

[Commy]

I always find it interesting that I always agree with CEO Aaron, but anyway...

Sea bases, simply put, are unpractical, inefficient for industry, for defense, and because, well, they're on the sea. They can't work all of the squares in the ocean, and of course, sea units, as said earlier, are more expensive. I fully believe in majority rules, and if 13 out of 14 factions like land better, well, then land is better...

[MoNoLitH]

CEO Aaron, I don't play MP, therefore any valid comparisons must assume computers at the controls in my case.


I think we've gone way off topic here. The focus was not on whether sea or land is better.


These forums can burn in hell. I have better things to do than get flamed by children with too much time on their hands. Good day.

[Enigma_Nova]

Then methinks you'd better stay well away from the internet, if you don't like to be flamed by immature idiots with too much time.

But you are here with us now.
We have trapped you in our world wide web.
You are now part of the Internet,
and cannot escape.

As for no expert players seeding the seas, I'm planning to conquer 2 seabases in the "You think you know everything" game.
Point taken that's not seeding the ocean, but sea bases have their worth, especially if they're on Energy bonuses in the Geothermal Shallows.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by MoNoLitH
CEO Aaron, I don't play MP, therefore any valid comparisons must assume computers at the controls in my case.


I think we've gone way off topic here. The focus was not on whether sea or land is better.


These forums can burn in hell. I have better things to do than get flamed by children with too much time on their hands. Good day.

Well if that is your attitude and perception when people don't agree with you, all I can say is farewell. I saw a bunch of polite responses telling you our honest opinions of your game. I always thought that was what a discussion board was for.

As for your mentioning that you only play against the computer, thats fine, but on here when we talk about what is best or powerful or hard or easy, we are assuming competent opposition, which for this game means other humans. Most of us beat the computer on transcend while intentionally imposing major handicaps on ourself. personally I hardly ever play the computer anymore unless it is a designed scenario.

As for going off topic-- it happens -- I don't see it as a big deal-- everyone was still talking smax

Oh and ignore enigma nova-- I know I do