Right now in my pbem it seems that when the mod is 2 then the tech would not be available for me. This may have something to do with how the game was set up. I am Hive and only had one given tech but cent ecology was not among the first batch of available techs.
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Be good, and if at first you don't succeed, perhaps failure will be back in fashion soon. -- teh Spamski
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Originally posted by HongHu
Right now in my pbem it seems that when the mod is 2 then the tech would not be available for me. This may have something to do with how the game was set up. I am Hive and only had one given tech but cent ecology was not among the first batch of available techs.
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That's right. Isn't that odd? Never figured out what is the reason. What I know for sure is that Darsnan had made a change so that flexibility was not required before you build sea colony pod. In the game we had to add a rule so that nobody would build sea bases before flex. Don't know if that means anything.Be good, and if at first you don't succeed, perhaps failure will be back in fashion soon. -- teh Spamski
Grapefruit Garden
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As I understand the theory to date, it is a variaation of the basic equation published by Minute Mirage - I'm quoting the basic version below so we can look at it on this page of the thread and to be sure we are talking about the same thing.
Originally posted by Minute Mirage
t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction (1-7)
The condition is
(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0
Worth noting here is "b", which for normal factions (Gaians) is 1, for some others (University, Pirates) 2 and for the Progenitors 5.
There is still a problem with the University needing an additional +1 adjustment.
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This is purported to have worked for SP and for PBEM's started both by the built in "NewGame" mechanism and by utilizing the Scenario Editor.
As I understand it, the spreadsheet is supposed to work for the initial choices as well; if so, ther may be a problem, at least with the Pirates, having 2 starting techs, slot 5, for which the spreadsheet offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, InfoNets, and AppPhysics, withholding IndBase and SocPsych, whereas the actual initial offering (assuming my test notes are accurate, and I am reasonably confident of that) is instead all 7 possible techs in an SP or "New Game" generated PBEM. No combination of slot numbers or initial tech settings seemed to make it show all 7. I know you'all mentioned the initial offerings earlier in the thread, but I thought that you said that you had that covered; that does not seem to be the case here, maybe I misunderstood something, or maybe there is a problem.
With the "Traded" toggle on, it offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, IndBase, SocPsych, and AppPhysics, withholding InfoNets, which is correct for a Scenario Generated version. I doubt that it matters, but if you're interested anyway, the other factions were set up to mimic the ACDG cast and turn order in all cases and the Scenario Generated version was either the ACDG itself or a similar verion I created adding the techs in manually via the ScenEd.
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I couldn't see in the macros where the formula was applied or how the "traded" button changed it or where the program stored which techs were discovered or its other variables, but they are obviously in there somewhere.
If I might suggest an improvement or 2:
- I would find it helpful if the techs that were otherwise available but for the floating mod 3 withholding were also listed, differentiated somehow, like with a different color scheme or in a separate table
- a "Reset" button to clear the tech list would also be nice
- if it were possible to present the Researched Technologies column in a different sequence from the current one (which appears to be in Alpha(x).txt order), that could be helpful too. Ideally, there would be several alternatives, including: the order they were researched; alphabetically; a Tech Tree form (like Build 1-n, Conquer 1-n, Discover 1-n, Explore1-n); and the Alpha(x).txt order. I imagine this could be a PIA, so don't bother unless you feel inspired.
- when I run the spreadsheet I get a message that says that a document by that name is already open ... cannot open two docs blah blah. Perhaps it is due to my old version of excel (form office 97) or perhaps it is something interesting I am blowing off when I click OK (like the variables, etc. I couldn't find) or some cosmetic thing you could easily correct.
On the whole, it looks like it could be a very useful tool - very good work.
Edit, I see now that the basic order of the techs is not exactly that of the Tech Tree in Alpha(x).txt, but what I suppose is the order of joker selection - earliest Green first, then rest of greens; then Discover from earliest to latest; etc. I see also those 'Only-a-mother-could-love-them' horrible expressions in the preqs_ok columns and I suppose that is where the bulk of the action occurs, a fine example of 'self documenting' code if I ever saw one, although truth be told it looks decipherable enough given a couple of aspirins. I'd still rather ask you how the details work than figure them our for myself, given a choice and god forbid having to debug it - counting parens is ever so much fun, even with the would be helpful color coding.Last edited by johndmuller; September 15, 2003, 16:48.
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Originally posted by johndmuller
As I understand the theory to date, it is a variaation of the basic equation published by Minute Mirage - I'm quoting the basic version below so we can look at it on this page of the thread and to be sure we are talking about the same thing.
If I understood the variation correctly, once the faction trades a tech for the first time (or if the game had been originally set up by the Scenario Editor and the CMN had inserted techs in there) then the "b" term is zero. (I think I got that straight, if I got it backwards, perhaps Kody or MM will point that out.)
Originally posted by johndmuller
There is still a problem with the University needing an additional +1 adjustment.
Originally posted by johndmuller
As I understand it, the spreadsheet is supposed to work for the initial choices as well; if so, ther may be a problem, at least with the Pirates, having 2 starting techs, slot 5, for which the spreadsheet offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, InfoNets, and AppPhysics, withholding IndBase and SocPsych, whereas the actual initial offering (assuming my test notes are accurate, and I am reasonably confident of that) is instead all 7 possible techs in an SP or "New Game" generated PBEM. No combination of slot numbers or initial tech settings seemed to make it show all 7. I know you'all mentioned the initial offerings earlier in the thread, but I thought that you said that you had that covered; that does not seem to be the case here, maybe I misunderstood something, or maybe there is a problem.
With the "Traded" toggle on, it offers CentEcol. ProgenPsych, Biogen, IndBase, SocPsych, and AppPhysics, withholding InfoNets, which is correct for a Scenario Generated version. I doubt that it matters, but if you're interested anyway, the other factions were set up to mimic the ACDG cast and turn order in all cases and the Scenario Generated version was either the ACDG itself or a similar verion I created adding the techs in manually via the ScenEd.
Having said that, I wonder if I encountered the problems only when I was testing the University? I think it's possible that with the Uni the choosing of the free tech is considered as the first selection.
In addition to this is the problem HongHu pointed out: not all the choices were available even though it was the initial selection. I think more research is needed in this regard, especially checking the differences between scenario started and normal games.
Would you like me to add a new "Initial choice: Yes/No" switch until we've figured this out? When we do get this sorted out I can incorporate the switch into the formulas but until then this would be an easier choice.
Originally posted by johndmuller
I couldn't see in the macros where the formula was applied or how the "traded" button changed it or where the program stored which techs were discovered or its other variables, but they are obviously in there somewhere.
={IF(MATCH(TRUE();$N$2:$N$90;0)=ROW(B2)-1;TRUE();IF(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))>1;NOT(MOD(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))+Techs!C2+Main!$H$21-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0);3)=0);TRUE()))}
The logical test in the first IF-clause ( "MATCH(TRUE();$N$2:$N$90;0)=ROW(B2)-1" ) checks whether the tech in the current row is the joker tech. The way this is done is checking where the first TRUE value is on the N-column and checking if that value happens to be on the same row. The reason this works is that the Techs on the "Techs" sheet have been sorted first by their type (Explore, Dicover, Build, Conquer) and then by their line number in alphax.txt. This is incidentally the same order in which the techs appear for choocing in SMAX, which has two consequences:
1) The first tech (in the top left corner) in the "Choose new technology to research"- screen in SMAX is always the joker tech.
2) The tech order in my "Available choices" list is the same as in SMAX, which is quite handy.
Anyway, if the tech is indeed the joker tech then TRUE is returned, otherwise we have to check for the other condition. Next comes:
IF(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))>1
This checks how many techs have already been researched, and if the number is not greater then one, then TRUE is returned. This is the "Initial choice" clause which needs to be changed.
Finally:
NOT(MOD(SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))+Techs!C2+Main!$H$21-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0);3)=0)
Here we calculate the number of techs researched:
SUM(IF(NOT(EXACT(Main!$A$3:$A$100;""));1;0))
Add the line number in alphax.txt to it:
+Techs!C2
Add the slot number to it:
+Main!$H$21
And subtract the number of starting techs, depending on whether techs have been traded or not:
-IF(EXACT(Main!$H$22;"No");Main!$H$20;0)
From all this we take the modulo 3 and see whether it is equal to 0 or not.
Worth noting are also the braces ( {} ) around the whole formula, which means that it's an array formula. If the formula is edited, you have to remember to press Ctrl+Shift+Enter to add the braces.
Originally posted by johndmuller
If I might suggest an improvement or 2:
- I would find it helpful if the techs that were otherwise available but for the floating mod 3 withholding were also listed, differentiated somehow, like with a different color scheme or in a separate table
Originally posted by johndmuller
- a "Reset" button to clear the tech list would also be nice
Originally posted by johndmuller
- if it were possible to present the Researched Technologies column in a different sequence from the current one (which appears to be in Alpha(x).txt order), that could be helpful too. Ideally, there would be several alternatives, including: the order they were researched; alphabetically; a Tech Tree form (like Build 1-n, Conquer 1-n, Discover 1-n, Explore1-n); and the Alpha(x).txt order. I imagine this could be a PIA, so don't bother unless you feel inspired.
I think I can add the different sorting options if I can figure how to add an IF-statement to a macro. Surely that can't be too hard (*knocks on wood*). In fact, if I can figure that out, I think I could also add a button that removes the last addition from the Technology list. This would be useful since you can't undo the effects of a macro.
Could you clarify the Tech tree form a bit? Should I first sort the techs by Type, then by Level and then alphabetically?
Originally posted by johndmuller
- when I run the spreadsheet I get a message that says that a document by that name is already open ... cannot open two docs blah blah. Perhaps it is due to my old version of excel (form office 97) or perhaps it is something interesting I am blowing off when I click OK (like the variables, etc. I couldn't find) or some cosmetic thing you could easily correct.
Originally posted by johndmuller
On the whole, it looks like it could be a very useful tool - very good work.
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MM, We had a bit of a cross-post (see the trailing edit to my last post), but I'll try to tie up whatever loose ends there might be, although given that you said that you weren't really trying to emulate the SP/AutoGenreatedPNEM initial tech selections, there is probably no substantive problem on the table from my side.
I take it that a ScenarioEditor generated game (with the manual tech insertion) is equivalent to an Autogenerated game where a trade has taken place - is that the official theory? In that case, some mention of Scenarios might be a good idea in the context of that toggle.
As to my mention of the University adjuustment, I was just feeding that back from yours or Kody's post earlier, that was not something I had personally experienced - my business with the Pirates was covered by your initial selection disclaimer. As near I can tell, the ACDG Pirates selections, including the initial selection, are what is shown in the spreadsheet if the trade toggle is on from the beginning.
When it comes to the initial selections, I can't say I know what the "correct" selection should be - whether the version generated in SP games (I'm going to stop mentioning autogenerated PBEMs, as most of the PBEMs seem to be manually generated anyway) where I take it that all the techs are available (I couldn't personally testify to that, but I have no problem believing it either) - or the version of the initial selection you get with a manually created PBEM where the tech selection is limited according to the post-trade logic. There also seems to be another version possible, in the spreadsheet at least, where the selection is limited by the pre-trade logic - which, in the case of the Pirates at least, does not correspond to any actual initial selection AFAIK; is this the part you are still working on? Anyway, that aside, I don't know what a supposed "correct" initial selection would be, so I guess that either the Complete, or the Scenario Generated PBEM limited one should be supported (if there is another possible set of starting choices, then that too, I suppose). Basically, the idea would be to have the spreadsheet start out showing the initial view as the player would see it, with maybe a toggle or two to adjust between SP and PBEM (possibly just the current 'trade' toggle. I imagine you already had something like this in mind and are just waiting to make sure that the rest of the logic is OK before making those formulae even more complicated.
Having discovered that it was 'safe' to just delete the Researched Techs from their column, the reset button became less pressing, but still nice. Along the same lines, when a tech is removed from that column, say to see what the effect of researching something else would be, if the sheet were recalculated then, it would probably clean up the column to get rid of the disquieting gap in the column - again, nice, but not necessary as it turns out. You seem to be already thinking along those lines with you thoughts on another button to remove the last addition - they would each make it more user friendly, as one might otherwise be afraid to mess with the cells and/or not be particularly adept at excel.
I meanwhile noticed that the spreadsheets order was not exactly the Tech Tree order, but was actuallly the 'joker' order - the fact that it is the order used by the program displays is an indication that the whole joker theory is correct. This is indeed a very uiseful ordering.
The other order I was talking about was indeed the categories (types) and levels (rows on the poster) as you guessed. At the time, I was thinking it more complicated than it actually is (I was thinking that each one had a unique index, but acually they repeat the same identifier (E1, B2, ... whatever) if there are more than one of a particular type on the same level. In any case, you seem to have already suplemented the Tech Tree data with the necessary info, so that should be easy.
I would be happy to see the 'might-have-been' techs displayed somehow, as I think that is useful practical info - showing as it does, what would become available if an optional trade is made before the current tech is researched. By the same token, some way of easily seeing which set of currently offered techs are the next to be withheld would also be helpful - just having the mod 3 groupings identified would probably be enough, although there may be more interesting ways to display the distinctions between the 3 groups and the joker.
A fact that is becomming clear if we are indeed on the right track, is that the joker is not necessarily going to be around if the prereqs for an earlier joker tech become available - for example Doc:AP could replace Ethical Calc if you traded for an intermediate tech or two, so thinking of the joker as being there until you decide to research it is not necessarily true.
I am getting convinced that this is going to be right on; It doesn't look like there are any more hidden zingers to be tripped over. Where exactly are the problem areas anyway. I'm not sure I understand the University problem; I gather it revolves around the extra tech, but what exactly is it? Is the problem that it only offers a subset of the possible techs for tech #3 when we want it to offer all of them? If so, perhaps it needs its own special button or toggle. Or is it something to do with the exact subsets offered, where there are seemingly only a few possibilities, like it is counting or not counting the extra tech and it either triggers the trade logic or it doesn't; if we figured out what is was doing that we didn't like, if it was strictly University driven, then that same (regretably tacky, but maybe necessary) toggle could be a part of the solution. One approach to any uniqueness issues like that would be to just to allow/require the user identify the faction and have the program set up the initial conditions and any special flags that might apply. The user could still add or remove techs or change toggles, just that it wouldn't be necessary to know all the wrinkles to be able to use it.
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I programmed computers for 4 years, an experience which tells me nothing stops the developers from putting dozens of little conditions in there to slightly randomize it or change the formula altogether in an arbitrary situation. Normal programming practice is to keep it simple, so the mechanisms (and problems) are easily traced from the results. But if your objective is to complicate and appear random, that's completely different.
Once you guys confirmed that the formula is complicated and can even change depending on events, all bets are off as to just how complex it will finally be. These are things that would take extremely exhaustive testing to reverse-engineer. The game does not lend itself to quick tests of all conditions.
I don't mean to be a party pooper. I just think there are areas of the game that can benefit more from all that brainpower.
We could get philosophical here and say this formula refining is a metaphor for science. Newton thought he had gravity figured out, but people came along later with more information that changed the formula. The old formula works in certain situations, but that doesn't make it "correct". Someday Einstein will likewise be corrected/refined.
This complexity springs from fundamentally simple rules (conventional wisdom AFAIK). The code of SMAX is not fundamentally simple. It's as complicated as the developers wanted it to be. I'll stop short of saying SMAX will one day become sentient and start discussing its secrets with you ("I display techs i like"), but the possible number of outcomes of SMAX games are astronomical. That's nice, but then consider that the complexity itself can feedback into the rules, and from here we should all read "Goedel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter-- sentience is the logical extreme of feedback loops.
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This confirms my theory that I'm most bizarre when I have a fever... days like today."Give to Caesar what is Caesar's? Pay no attention to Caesar. He doesn't have a clue what's really going on." -Cat's Cradle
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Well, I've finally made a new version of the spread sheet. I was somewhat busy with my studies, which is why this took a lot longer than expected. Here's what's changed:
Added "All choices"- list, which lists all the techs the prerequisites of which have been researched.
Added "Remainder"- list next to the "All choices"- techs. There are three possible values here -- 0, 1 and 2. If the value is 0, the tech is not displayed in the "Available choices"- list, unless it is the first tech in the "All choices"- list (the joker tech).
Added "Remove Latest Addition"- and "Remove All"- buttons.
Changed "Add"- button to "Add/del" so that the same button can be used to both adding and deleting technologies from the "Researched Technologies"- list, depending on whether the desired technology is already in the list or not.
Added a "Sort"- button and included four sorting options: Alphabetical, Order of research, SMAX order and Tech tree order. The "Researched Technologies"- list is automatically sorted according to the selected sorting option whenever technologies are added or removed.
Added the "Initial selection"- switch, which makes all the choices available if set to "Yes".
Technologies can no longer be entered manually, so I made the sheet protected. There's no password, so the sheet can be unprotected if need be.
Any comments are welcome.
Originally posted by johndmuller
I'm not sure I understand the University problem; I gather it revolves around the extra tech, but what exactly is it? Is the problem that it only offers a subset of the possible techs for tech #3 when we want it to offer all of them? If so, perhaps it needs its own special button or toggle. Or is it something to do with the exact subsets offered, where there are seemingly only a few possibilities, like it is counting or not counting the extra tech and it either triggers the trade logic or it doesn't; if we figured out what is was doing that we didn't like, if it was strictly University driven, then that same (regretably tacky, but maybe necessary) toggle could be a part of the solution.
EDIT: Removed the file, there's a newer version available later in the thread.Last edited by Minute Mirage; October 10, 2003, 12:47.
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Well, I don't think we've got the formula wholly figured out yet. Like I said, I'm having problems with the University's choices in the ACDG and now I've also got problems in the 'Blind Leaders' PBEM game where johndmuller is the CMN.
The problem in both the games is that even though my faction is in slot #2, I get the choices I should get if the slot was #1. What makes the whole thing more weird, is that I've tried replicating the Blind Leaders game technology- wise, and I've gotten the choices I should get according to theory, but not the choices I got in the actual game. Therefore, there must still be a hidden rule somewhere. Maybe it's related to how the CMN started the game, or how the turns are passed to different players.
Has anyone else experienced similar problems in PBEM (HongHu seemed to have some troubles)?
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I don't know if it will help you or not, but as best as I recall, the way I started out the University in the Blind Leaders game was to assign Centaur Ecology (adding the tech in the Scenario Editor to an otherwise blank slate) as the initial tech and to select Infomation Networks during the 1st turn, which I played in the Scenario Editor while assigning passwords and making sure that the Chairman did certain things with his first turn. (If I assigned InfoNets, as you might have expected me to have done, the game didn't offer CentEcology in the next turn, so I had to do it the other way.)
I still think this is a really great package and I haven't personally noticed any problems to date, but neither have I tried checking it too closely against existing games, in part because some of them are SMAC, with its slightly different tech tree (a SMAC or SMAX option would be another useful enhancement btw), but mostly because I haven't had the occasion to do any serious tech planning/worrying in those games yet.
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Originally posted by johndmuller
I don't know if it will help you or not, but as best as I recall, the way I started out the University in the Blind Leaders game was to assign Centaur Ecology (adding the tech in the Scenario Editor to an otherwise blank slate) as the initial tech and to select Infomation Networks during the 1st turn, which I played in the Scenario Editor while assigning passwords and making sure that the Chairman did certain things with his first turn. (If I assigned InfoNets, as you might have expected me to have done, the game didn't offer CentEcology in the next turn, so I had to do it the other way.)
Originally posted by johndmuller
I still think this is a really great package and I haven't personally noticed any problems to date, but neither have I tried checking it too closely against existing games, in part because some of them are SMAC, with its slightly different tech tree (a SMAC or SMAX option would be another useful enhancement btw), but mostly because I haven't had the occasion to do any serious tech planning/worrying in those games yet.
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Originally posted by Minute Mirage
Do you remember how exactly did you assign the techs? Did you use Ctrl+F2 or Shift+F2? If you used Shift+F2, how did you set the technology to be researched to none? Also, since I'm not very experienced with the scenario editor, how exactly do you play a turn there? . . .
To play the turn 'within the Scneario Editor', the sequence was more or less like this (much of the necessary info is in Googlies guide:
Preliminaries:
--Start up a new game with the desired cast of SMAX factions, play it briefly and save it (this primarily creates the appropriate faction list in the AlphaCentauri.ini file - I think you could just do this manually, but this way is just as easy and you don't have to worry about spelling mistakes).
--Create a map and figure out where each of the factions will be located, what they should have in the way of units, etc.
Basic Scenario setup:
--Start a new scenario and load in the map. Without 'activating' the Scenario Editor, do the initial setup things like the techs, energy,year, personalities, etc and put in all the units at the locations you liked from before (it's a good idea to save the scenario occasionally - especially if you are placing a lot of units - as it sometimes crashes; sometimes I get effed up scenarios that leave the map partly visible or worse, so I use a lot of different filenames in case my last one(s) is/are bad).
Playing a turn or two:
--Using the Scenario menu (or some keystroke if there is one), select the item (something like) "Set Player / Change Faction"; select the sub-item (something like) "Play All Factions".
--Hit Ctrl-K (or use menu) to 'activate' the Scenario Editor; you will now have a seemingly live game (hopefully with the first faction in control. You can now play turns for each faction, doing whatever things you might want to do - like found bases (to make sure the AI puts them where you want), give orders to bases and individual units (some of this may be futile if the AI overrules you right away as soon as you go away). Play through to some reasonable stoppinig point (like to the the beginning (or end maybe) of a round of turns) - I don't know it matters or not where you stop playing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the resulting game will start from wherever you leave off - or not.
--'DeActivate' the Scenario Editor (I think this is very important) and save the Scenario - it should be good to go. It may be possible to further edit the scenario details here, but I can't say for sure; by this time, I'm usually happy enough if it works OK.
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In SP I always play blind research. Otherwise it is too easy.(\__/) Save a bunny, eat more Smurf!
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