About beelining to Industrial Automation...

[Minute Mirage]

Thank you for the information Curiosity, I'm trying to test it out.

Observations: I'm not sure if the joker tech part is correct. Consider the following scenario: I'm playing the Gaians on transcend difficulty, 1st slot. The techs I've researched so far are

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych.

According to your formula, the following techs should be available:

Field Modulation
Polymorphic Software
Social Psych.

However, Doctrine: Flexibility is also available, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 7 and the equivalent number for both Social Psych and Polymorphic Software is 6.

Another example a bit later from the same game:

Researched Technologies:

Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks
Industrial Base
Doctrine: Mobility
Progenitor Psych
Doctrine: Flexibility
Social Psych

Choices:

Applied Physics
Biogenetics
Ethical Calculus
Industrial Economics

Polymorphic Software doesn't appear now, even though the sum of its explore, build, discover and conquer values is 6, which is the minimum of all techs available.

[HeymlicH]

@curiosity:

the good thing with the modulo is, they can be added. This means, you have nothing more to do then dividing the techs into 3 large groups. The modulo 1 group techs can't be researched if you already have k*3+2 techs.

I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).

then you start to work out your research plan. The first tech gets number 1 you continue with 2,3, then start again with 1. Whenever a tech gets the number noted in the big plan it is not available at this time.

So it is not difficult to work out the plan. However, it might be difficult to understand my explanation. Maybe someone who is able to figure out what I mean can explain it better

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HeymlicH

I remember there was a big plan in the box - it would be a good idea to note in that plan for each tech the value 3 - (t mod 3).

You mean the technology tree? Yes, I suppose that could work. What I personally did was to create an excel worksheet that shows the choices you have depending on the techs you have researched. Unfortunately, I've got trouble with the joker techs as mentioned in my previous post.

[Curiosity]

John,

I only did this research because my tech path was screwing up in a multi-faction game, so I stopped when I knew enough to trade techs around without screwing everything up. So, my knowledge of this has some gaps in it.

I will check out how the factions differ - I hadn't given this much credibility myself, but from a game the other night I suspect it may well be the faction's slot which makes a difference, since I wasn't able to go straight to IA with the UoP - something which never happened to me before. I'd guess at a formula of
(slotID + n + t) mod 3 != 0,
if this is the case.

I think ties are broken by order in the tech tree (resulting in always being able to research T. thought, which is handy.) I'll have to modify alphax.txt to check it out.

[Minute Mirage]

I think I've got the basic formula figured out now. This is what seems to work for me:

t = position of tech in alphax.txt (0-88)
n = total number of technologies for the faction
b = number of technologies at the beginning of the game for the faction
s= slot number of the faction

The condition is

(n + t + s - b) mod 3 != 0

Worth noting here is "b", which for normal factions (Gaians) is 1, for some others (University, Pirates) 2 and for the Progenitors 5.

In addition to this come the joker techs, the formula to which I haven't been able to figure out yet. I'm afraid Curiosity's suggestion doesn't work for me.

[Kody]

I've noticed that it usually likes green techs. In fact a few months ago I was trying to figure out the way it caculated available techs and I noticed it always showed a green tech, except when there were no green techs available.

Another interesting point to make the Joker tech seems to always be the first in the listing of techs.

Edit:
From what I can see the joker tech is the first green tech available in the alphax.txt list.

[Kody]

You had to join the University Minute Mirage. *sniffs sadly* So many missed strategy discussions.

[Kody]

The joker tech seems to be the first green tech in the alphax.txt you have the pre-reqs for.

If you research all the green techs I think there is no joker tech.

I haven't figured out what happens if all the green techs are gone, but I think there's no joker tech. The problem I'm having is SMAX crashes when I try to change the pre-reqs of certain techs.

Edit:

Been thinking about it, and I'm guessing the joker tech is the first that would appear in the available tech to research list. The listing of techs appear to work in the order of Green, White, Yellow and Red.

So it first finds out all the green techs and lists them in the order it appears in the alphax.txt and then finds all the white techs, and so on. To prevent the case of being unable to choose a tech, the game always enables the first tech it can list that you have preqs for.

I have yet to test this by disabling all the green techs. However, this kind of setup would make sense.

[Curiosity]

Kody's correct; my explaination for the Joker tech was biased by the fact that Mobility, Flexibility and Initiative all have low combined values, and they're normally the Jokers. A less perverse mind than mine would have realized that they're all Explore techs first.

I've tested Kody's explaination through the Explore, Discover and Build techs, so it's pretty solid.


MM,

Though my testing of this was limited, I'd say you have it there.

[johndmuller]

I've never really tried to nail down the determination of the joker tech, but I have collected data for a while in my PBEMS as to what was offered, mostly with an eye to confirming the rotation of the withheld techs - the mod 3 thing in this threads language. Unfortunately, trading, stealing, popping or whatever other ways there are to get techs besides researching them tend to cloud the issue, making it hard enough to monitor the 1 in 3 thing, let alone the joker, which you have to studiously avoid getting it for some time if you are going to establish that it really is appearing in all 3 groups; like if you make one trade, then you have to get 2 more techs to get back on that group again.

Anyway, I do have a collection of data, limited to some extent by the effect of trades, etc, and sometimes by forgetting to record the choices in the excitement of finally getting a long awaited tech; at some point I will try to analyze it in the context here and see if anything pops up.

I'm pretty sure I've seen ProgenPsych as a wild card, but I think I've also seen it skipped under similar, but not I imagine quite identical circumstances, where I think that EthicalCalc was the wild card instead. The same with Centauri Ecology; I know I have seen that skipped and it is a really bad way to start the game. I don't have any recollections regarding Doc:Mobility, but wouldn't one of them be a candidate for the el primo joker according to the earliest green theory?

My notion is that with the possible exception of some sort of factional adjustment, the whole tech offering thing is controlled by the Tech Tree section of the Alpha(x).txt file(s), without the need for the program to go hunting through very much other stuff. According to that theory, the Tech Tree (in conjunction with the techs you already have, to determine what you are eliible for) would have some rule applied to it, like first available green tech (an entry whose ai-colonize value was higher than the other categories) - that particular rule would make Doc:Mobility the ultimate wild card, then Centauri Ecology. Highest green value available tech would give the nod to ProgenPsych.

The particular column it looked at might depend on the faction's (factionname).txt file; such a variation would make Morgan look for a build tech, as that is the only category he cares about. The Spartans would go for Conquer or Discover I suppose. I don't really know how it would hanclle ties in the faction file, but if green is an observed priority, then perhaps it is just the reverse order of categories, i.e. Explore, Build, Discover, Conquer.

BTW, there are a couple of strange looking factions in there - ever heard of the Outlaws? (They can't use 'Controlled Protocols')

[Minute Mirage]

Well, I think we've got pretty much everything figured out now. The joker tech seems to be determined by the method Kody described: If there are any Explore techs with both the prerequisites researched, it's the Explore tech that is the highest in alphax.txt. If there are no Explore techs, it's a Discover tech. If there are no Explore or Discover techs, it's a Build tech. If there are no other techs, it's a Conquer tech.

While there's no specific column in alphax.txt that specifies the category a given tech belongs to, the category can be determined from the maximum value of the ai-mil, ai-tech, ai-infra and ai-colonize values of the tech, just like johndmuller said. That is, if a tech has the following values: 2, 3, 2, 0, its maximum value is 3, which is on the ai-tech column. Thus, it is an explore tech. If I'm not mistaken, the only technology that has its maximum value in two columns instead of one is Ethical Calculus. Otherwise its very easy to determine the category of a technology just by these four values.

What I did was to copy alphax.txt into Excel, after which the technologies available to research can be determined as long as the following information is known: technologies researched, # of starting techs and the slot number of the faction.

[Snowflake]

Good work guys! Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by HongHu
Would it be possible for you to attach the excel file here?

I suppose I can do it, once I've finished it. I'm still making some cosmetic enhancements and adding macros to make adding new technologies to the list of researched technologies easier.

[johndmuller]

MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are :
ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts
ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge
ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth
ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth

I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

[Minute Mirage]

Originally posted by johndmuller
MinuteMirage, I think that ai-tech is equivalent to Discover, not explore.

That's true, I meant Discover but typed Explore instead.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I think the corresponcences within alpha(x).txt are are :
ai-mil = Conquer .... aka Power in some contexts
ai-tech = Discover .... aka Knowledge
ai-infra = Build ........ aka Wealth
ai-colonize = Explore ... aka Growth

I agree.

Originally posted by johndmuller
I am still not sure that the scheme is always the same; there have been reports that certain factions cannot follow the same beelines, thus the various alternatives that I tossed out above. In order to establish that it was always the same, some games would have to be played (carefully, to make sure you establish the joker tech) with a variety of factions. Many of the factions feature colonize/growth/explore in their faction files category biases as either the favorite or co-favorite, so if ties go to Explore, then many of the factions would behave the same, possibly leading a would be theorist down a garden path - thus a good test should include some factions which favor other categories, like Morgan and Infra/Build/Wealth or Sparta, with Conquer or Discover bias. This could be a rather tedious test, so it is probably more fun to just talk about it instead.

I can do some more testing with the different factions. It's not that tedious when you activate the scenario editor and obtain a new tech by pressing SHIFT+F2.