Is Apolyton still the biggest Civ site?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
It is a FACT that CF enjoys multiple times the traffic that Apolyton does.

No, it's not a fact unless you have the actual server logs, which typically aren't available for all to see. What do you think those proprietary tools of yours use? Magic? Server info is the ONLY way to accurately measure activity, the rest is 'best guess' at best. I do this stuff for a living too (well, for money anyway), but from a technical point of view, and I actually understand the technology behind it (better yet, I've programmed some of it myself).

Page views is a horrible way to measure activity anyway, that's about as useful as using a single stat to sum up the qualities of football players, whether they are defenders, attackers or goalkeepers.

I do indeed believe CFC is bigger than Apolyton but there is NO WAY to know this for a fact. If you have even the slightest illusion otherwise YOU'RE the one whose lacking knowledge.

[Ming]

I would NEVER admit to knowing the actual REAL numbers. But it is a fact that CFC has more site traffic than Apolyton by multiple factors. Every reporting tool shows it to be the case. While the exact number can only be seen by reviewing the logs, the evidence available shows the same trend... If you want to hang your hat on the exact number, and not reality, that's your problem... At least you admit that you "Believe" that CF is bigger... because it is, and that is a fact. And I don't need the latest exact number to prove that.

[DanQ]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I have the feeling that the civfanatics administration is more interested in civ4 then the poly administration.

For the record, it's not a matter of not being interested -- it's a matter of available time and energy. We have a dedicated staff, but their time and energy too is limited; indeed, there are sections of our offerings that are lacking than I would like improved but again there is only so many resources at our disposal... humans included.

We always welcome willing and able volunteers to come forward, but it's proven difficult to find those that are both willing and able -- at the same -- and for an extended period of time.

News is late, and the news is not unique.

This is only a relatively recent occurance -- it has not been the case for the majority of the site's future. In fact, if you go through our news archive you will not that our news coverage was timely and detailed from at least December 1999 until mid-March or so of this year. The vast majority of that news coverage was me. This is not the case anymore, in large part because of a) the lack of feedback I received (and traffic observed, in comparison to other sections of the site anyway) while I was 'front and centre' with it and b) personal non-Apolyton (i.e. job) commitments.

Both snoopy369 and Illuminatus are doing very well in the news department, particularly given I am able to do so little of it myself anymore. But they are only two people, not dedicated "newsies" and their first responsibility to the site is not news besides. Then, of course, there are their own non-Apolyton commitments.

As for the unique comment, I'm not exactly certain what you're getting at but particularly since last August I have made great efforts to have more of what Apolyton 'reports' as news as being news of its own, i.e. in-house features, on an ongoing basis. Due to time, energy and again other human resources, after about half-a-year of doing both full-tilt I had to make a choice whether to continue focusing on that or return to more reporting on 'others'' news. It is the making news through in-house features that I would define as unique.

Certainly the feedback to these in-house features has not always been... favourable , but it is there in reflection of them being viewed and heard. It's a start.

I think Apolyton focusses on too much games to be counted as a civilization-specialist site. It's common with game-site, they try to get bigger by attracting new audiences. I'd say: drop the CTP series, the AC series, the RON series and just leave the sid-civ forums open. (AC might be questionable).

We have always been about quality coverage, not quantity coverage. While there has certainly been activity in the sections you mention above and suggest us dropping, that level of activity is not to the same degree or extent as CivIV or Galactic Civilizations II: Dread Lords for example. But that is neither surprising nor a criticism of the Call to Power, Alpha Centauri or Rise of Nations communities: just a fact.

No doubt my post here comes arcoss as defensive, and its intent is just that to a degree. At the same time it's defensive with the purpose of clarifying matters in our view, but ultimately all interested parties such as yourself are entitled and need to form your own opinions. Again though, the underlying issue is that our resources are strained, particularly human.

Do get in touch with Markos and I if you are willing and able to help not only with maintaining but building on what Apolyton already offers, and offers well (or at least decent ). We appreciate criticism when it is constructive, and serious offers of assistance to help address such criticisms even more: in other words, both offering a solution and commiting to being apart of seeing that/a solution through.

---------
Dan; Apolyton CS

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
I would NEVER admit to knowing the actual REAL numbers. But it is a fact that CFC has more site traffic than Apolyton by multiple factors.

Do you even understand the definition of a fact? You're contradicting yourself here. If you don't have real numbers, it's not a fact. Educated speculation and reality are two entirely different things. They may coincide 90-95% of the time, but that still leaves plenty of room for error. Even the most reliable tools are horribly wrong on occasion since they use indirect and at least partially unreliable evidence. I've seen these tools be almost spot-on on some occassions but off by several factors on others.

Again, I do believe that CFC is bigger as well, but this is a belief. A well-founded belief, but a belief nonetheless. I cannot possibly know this for a fact, noone can.

If you want to hang your hat on the exact number, and not reality

Real numbers are not reality? Are you just parodizing a marketing guy now or what? If so, you're doing a great job

[Ming]

Are you ignoring reality here... The best numbers from multiple sources show that CF has a minimum of twice the traffic as Apolyton. In no anaylsis is Apolyton shown to be larger. Your argument is like saying that you can't prove that there are a "lot of stars in the universe" because nobody knows the exact number.

I will bet you any amount of money you wish that if server data was compared, it would show what I'm stating as fact.

So if you want to stand by your, we don't know the exact number, therefore it is not true... feel free... ignore reality all you wish.

Again, I have no real faith in the actual numbers generated by the multiple systems we use. But the fact they are consistent and show the same relative strength of both sites makes it a fact to me.

Come on, put your money where your mouth is.

[Ecthy]

It would be real cool to see Markos arguing with Ming over this and then one of them gets banned.

MarkG, I will say this one last time: attack the post, not the poster

[Zoid]

Mod fight!!

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Ming
Are you ignoring reality here... The best numbers from multiple sources show that CF has a minimum of twice the traffic as Apolyton. In no anaylsis is Apolyton shown to be larger.

Which are all important clues but not evidence. Those sources are all making predictions. And one might very reasonably predict that the world will not end tomorrow, something on which I would be willing to bet everything I own (not in the last place because it wouldn't matter if I'd be wrong ) but that doesn't mean the world can't actually end within the next 24 hours.

Your argument is like saying that you can't prove that there are a "lot of stars in the universe" because nobody knows the exact number.

No, it's like saying there are more stars in the universe than grains of salt in the Sahara -- which would be very hard to prove either way. Saying there are lots of stars is like saying there are lots of page views on either site, which is a big fat "duh!".

I will bet you any amount of money you wish that if server data was compared, it would show what I'm stating as fact.

So will I, I've said so in just about every post in this thread, but still neither of us is basing that on evidence, only on strong clues. Reality is that we DO NOT KNOW. If you want to believe otherwise, that's fine by me. It makes you no different from most marketing guys but it doesn't make you right...

[Robert]

Locotus is clearly in denial
Go, visit civfanatics, you'll see that the forums are much more active overthere! Even the off topic forum overhere isn't as active anymore as it used to be.
I say that as an apolyton fan, I hardly do anything with civfanatics.

[Robert]

Dan,

For the record, it's not a matter of not being interested -- it's a matter of available time and energy. We have a dedicated staff, but their time and energy too is limited

I understand that, it wasn't meant to sound critical, I just said what I observed. Perhaps 'interested' is not the right word, but you're not as dedicated anymore, which is fine. I'm not as dedicated for civ as in the civ1/civ2 years either. I'm a grown up boy now and almost a father 8) there's more in life then civ

This is only a relatively recent occurance -- it has not been the case for the majority of the site's future. In fact, if you go through our news archive you will not that our news coverage was timely and detailed from at least December 1999 until mid-March or so of this year. The vast majority of that news coverage was me.

Well, that might be true, the news part is fast and up to date. What I meant is more that the news is never unique or special. It's news you can find anywhere.

Though having said that, the apolycon coverage and the civ warlords preview videos were unique and good and special.

We have always been about quality coverage, not quantity coverage. While there has certainly been activity in the sections you mention above and suggest us dropping, that level of activity is not to the same degree or extent as CivIV or Galactic Civilizations II: Dread Lords for example. But that is neither surprising nor a criticism of the Call to Power, Alpha Centauri or Rise of Nations communities: just a fact.

I agree that those secsions are quality sections, and there's nothing wrong with them. I just think that a site that focusses on too much subjects will lose appeal to a lot of visitors. It's a decision you guys have to make. Do you really want to be a home for those few CTP guys.

I think people got the feeling more and more that apolyton is a tbs/world builder fan site, civfanatics is a civilization fansite. I remember being a Tiberian Sun fan (rts game) and visiting one Tiberian Sun fansite daily. They started to cover more rts games later and I lost interest since I didn't care about the other games. I was just a casual TS fan. Perhaps I would have stayed if I would've been a hardcore fan.

No doubt my post here comes arcoss as defensive, and its intent is just that to a degree. At the same time it's defensive with the purpose of clarifying matters in our view, but ultimately all interested parties such as yourself are entitled and need to form your own opinions. Again though, the underlying issue is that our resources are strained, particularly human.

I hope you didn't read my comments as hars critisism, that's not how I intended it. I just tried to give my opinion and how I think that things may improve. I might be very wrong though. And I understand that resources are limited.

Do get in touch with Markos and I if you are willing and able to help not only with maintaining but building on what Apolyton already offers, and offers well (or at least decent :cute. We appreciate criticism when it is constructive, and serious offers of assistance to help address such criticisms even more: in other words, both offering a solution and commiting to being apart of seeing that/a solution through.

That's the difficult part. I would love it to contribute but my time is limited as well. I try to help the site with expanding the civ4 diplogaming community (which is a special apolyton thing, though it's very small). Eventhough I am a programmer and would be able to help in other parts, I just don't have time for that and I am really sorry for that, since I am an apolyton fan, I'm around here since 1998. (and on the Ultimate civ site since 1997 I think). The only thing I could do is modding the civ4:mp section which is hardly moderated right now (doesn't need much mod action though) since I'm visiting that forum 20 times a day (because of the diplogaming).

If I'll ever have more time I'll surely try to contribute in more important stuff.

[TCO]

When I was on the forums, Poly was the megamutha. CF was for wimps and people like PH (but I repeat myself). What the heck happened?!?!?

[Ming]

Originally posted by Locutus
So will I, I've said so in just about every post in this thread, but still neither of us is basing that on evidence, only on strong clues. Reality is that we DO NOT KNOW. If you want to believe otherwise, that's fine by me. It makes you no different from most marketing guys but it doesn't make you right...

The tracking reports we use are evidence. And again, I know I'm right and you are the one in denial.

Do you want to put your money where your mouth is? I have data that proves you wrong. But I have no problem with comparing serving logs, because it will only suport the data I can clearly see.

[TCO]

What if we launched an invasion?

[Ming]

Originally posted by TCO
What if we launched an invasion?

Probably not a good idea... unless you want to start posting under a different log on in the future

[Lancer]

Originally posted by TCO
When I was on the forums, Poly was the megamutha. CF was for wimps and people like PH (but I repeat myself). What the heck happened?!?!?