President Biden

[PLATO]

Voting for someone just because they carry the label "democrat" instead of "republican" is part of the problem. There are many things to consider in picking a President. Policy considerations and moral fortitude should be, IMHO, the most important. Hard to find anyone in Politics that meet both those. I loved Trump's economic policies, but I hated the moral side. I also hated his foreign policy. For Biden, he gets higher marks on the moral part by a large measure, but still has issues there. Mixed bag for me on his policies. I mostly like the foreign policy, but domestic policy doesn't work for me. Economic policy, unless we see a turnaround, is a disaster. I am hopeful that both parties will have someone emerge that can rise above the candidates we are currently looking at. After all...Obama came out of nowhere (and so did Trump for that matter).

[Jon Miller]

At some point it is about the group that supports the politician who attempted a coup to remain in power, and is making movements so that next time a similar coup would be unsuccessful, and the group that does not support such a politician.

I yearn for the day when Republicans are more like Romney or Hogan. I don't see it.

It isn't about Trump's economic policy, or Biden's, or what is better foreign policy and who has that better foreign policy.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Have Republicans disavow the coup attempt and Trump and I will quit caring as much about label.

JM
(and.I don't just mean Romney/etc)

[My Wife Hates CIV]

i dont need moral leadership. i know right for wrong. i know trump is rough. i know biden is a ******. i want a leader. trump (with argument) has more leadership than brandon... you want to argue this????

[Jon Miller]

Sure. I think that Trump was a disaster of a leader, even if you liked his policies. If he had been a strong leader his coup attempt would have been successful. He couldn't get his wall built. He couldn't end the ACA. He couldn't completely ban muslim people from entering the US. He couldn't get infrastructure week to go. He couldn't make peace with North Korea. He ended US leadership around the globe. He couldn't bring peace to the Middle East. He couldn't end DACA. He couldn't have Black Lives Matter (and other) protestors shot.

Finally, just being 'a leader' is not a positive. Even a good leader. Caesar and Napoleon were good leaders, but terrible for the Roman and French Republics. I don't want a Caesar or Napoleon now.

JM

[Jon Miller]

i dont need moral leadership. i know right for wrong. i know trump is rough. i know biden is a ******. i want a leader. trump (with argument) has more leadership than brandon... you want to argue this????

You want to be dominated by a king.

I will, depending on the will of others, either leave or resist until the last drop of blood leaves my veins.

We are not the same.

JM

[My Wife Hates CIV]

DIDNT read past this - If he had been a strong leader his coup attempt would have been successful. pelosi and shifft... the whole russia fake story please - go away.

[PLATO]

Sure. I think that Trump was a disaster of a leader, even if you liked his policies.

In many ways...yes...he was a disaster.

If he had been a strong leader his coup attempt would have been successful.

By any rational definition of a coup, this wasn't one. It was a riot by a bunch of idiots.

He couldn't get his wall built.

It was actually well on its way. With the flood of undocumented immigrants since Biden took power, maybe we should have supported it more. Surely you can't support what is happening at the boarder???

He couldn't end the ACA.

Once something like the ACA enters law, it is very hard to remove it without a very good alternative. Most people see that the ACA is very flawed, but it would be very difficult to come up with something better that could actually get passed. This, however, I agree is a fail on Trump's part.

He couldn't completely ban muslim people from entering the US.

Interestingly enough. The countries he issued the ban on (the so called "ban on Muslims") was the exact list that the Obama administration had drawn up for exactly the purpose that it was used for...removing high risk terrorist countries from easy entry to the US. It became a "ban on Muslims" only because the media said so.

He couldn't get infrastructure week to go.

Big fail here imo. Surprisingly little Republican support. In a more sane political era, this could have been a big bi-partisan win with the Democrats. Opportunity missed due to stupid republicans and demented democrats.

He couldn't make peace with North Korea.

Credit should be given for coming closer than anyone else. Now, the lack of enthusiasm to engage a nuclear armed state on one of our best allies boarders, just boggles the mind. Trump gave up nothing in the negotiations and brought about years of no nuclear weapon testing. Not a big win by any stretch, but at least a small one.

He ended US leadership around the globe.

He certainly didn't make friends, but then people rarely do when they insist that people carry their own weight. The fruits of that are still providing benefits. I do, however, wish that he had been more consultive with allies.

He couldn't bring peace to the Middle East.

Peace treaties between Israel and the Gulf States? Taking out one of the most dangerous killers in the middle east? Nearly destroying ISIS?
What did you want? Everybody singing kumbaya in 4 years?

He couldn't end DACA.

If you will do the research, Trump wasn't unsupportive of DACA's goals. He just felt like it should not be by executive order...that congress should have to act. He even stated he would sign the bill. He was right about this...that is not an executive order type of problem.

He couldn't have Black Lives Matter (and other) protestors shot.

Oh please...really?

Finally, just being 'a leader' is not a positive. Even a good leader. Caesar and Napoleon were good leaders, but terrible for the Roman and French Republics. I don't want a Caesar or Napoleon now.

JM

Agreed!

So...in the final analysis, I have to say that Trump was not a good President or Leader...and for one very important reason. Trump was devisive. He treated people who disagreed with him poorly. He was a bully. He did not know how to compromise.

So let's be truthful about his weakness and not just repeat propoganda talking points.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

Credit should be given for coming closer than anyone else. - REALLY!?!?

[Jon Miller]

It was actually well on its way. With the flood of undocumented immigrants since Biden took power, maybe we should have supported it more. Surely you can't support what is happening at the boarder???

It wasn't. His general abuse towards illegal immigrants and anti-immigration stance did have an impact, and much more than the few miles of wall he was able to construct.

The boarder problems are in part caused by Biden not having control, due to activist judges. I guess you could say that Trump had some of the same problems. This is why Congress should do things, and not judges/presidents by executive order.

Credit should be given for coming closer than anyone else. Now, the lack of enthusiasm to engage a nuclear armed state on one of our best allies boarders, just boggles the mind. Trump gave up nothing in the negotiations and brought about years of no nuclear weapon testing. Not a big win by any stretch, but at least a small one.

When my trumpist relatives ask me if I supported Trump in anything, this is one of the things that I think of when I say 'yes'.

While it was a good attempt, it was still a failure. I agree that it was better to attempt and fail than not to attempt at all. So you are right, he should get credit for this.

Oh please...really?

This was new to me too, but yesterday it came out that Trump Defense Secretary Mark Esper has said that. I wouldn't have believed it.

This actually points to another leadership failure. Either Trump was a a disaster, or many of his key cabinet picks were liars/bad apples/etc (and so he was a disaster) or both.

So let's be truthful about his weakness and not just repeat propoganda talking points.

I think you need to take another look at the events of January 6. There is a reason why a majority of Republicans in the Senate were initially done with with him. It wasn't just a riot, it was planned to subvert the election.

JM

[My Wife Hates CIV]

" His general abuse towards illegal immigrants" you mean all the fake stories from the dems???

[My Wife Hates CIV]

and if trump was such a disaster of a leader why is brandon failing so bad, seems he should be doing much better - or should we discuss what bidens failures are after the midterms. come on man (as biden would say) biden won because of TDS - nothing more nothing less. no one voted for biden, only against trump. biden could have been a box of rocks - and in many ways he is.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

I regret letting you in here. We can get this reactionary bullcrap anywhere on the nets.

[My Wife Hates CIV]

ok than i resign from the old timers home.