Rugby - 6 Nations, Heineken Cup, You Can't Beat A Northern Hemisphere Winter!

[Havak]

As it stands Hartely and Mears should be swapped for Paice and Chuter. And then one of them dropped from the Saxons also and be replaced there by Joe Duffey.

Paice and Duffey are the future at 2 I think.

So it is just one more example of ultra-conservatism.

I mean is Care ahead of Youngs on form in any conceivable measure whatsoever? And such selection bafflements run through the squad.

Payne rewarded for Cole running him ragged with an Elite place - whilst Cole himself stays a Saxon and the man he has displaced (white) at Tigers is in the Elite squad....

It makes no sense.

[Andydog]

It really does make me s****** when I read that there are now three Kiwis representing England in the 6 Nations. I wonder how long it will be until we see England doing a pre-match haka.

Three journeymen Kiwis slotting in for the Poms speaks volumes about the desperation of English rugby. How did it come to this? If I were English I'd probably be gently blaming the incompetence of the RFU, in a lazy comfortable sort of way.

[finbar]

How did it come to this?

Leaving aside J****'s judgement that certain Kiwi-born players are better than certain English-born alternatives, a dubious judgement indeed, count the number of foreign-born players - England-ineligible - in the Premiership. The Premiership trophy, via ready-made foreign players, is more important than any longer-term, local thinking, regardless of the various acadamies.

[Havak]

Well the situation is desparate, one can hardly deny that. But that is an issue of selection really. Just like the ABs desparate search for a lock worthy of the name and someone - anyone - who can cover Carter to 50% of the effectiveness?

But can I correct you - they are in the 'Elite' (pretentious name) squad which does not necessarily mean they will feature in the 6N.

I could name the English lads I would like in their place - but it would mean nothing to you I suspect? Between us I am the only one who watches our domestic rugby I suspect?

You once explained to me how culturally cosmopolitan NZ is - the UK is even more so. I am certain we could find an English qualified player from all the other IRB affiliated rugby players nations currently residing here.

Hell there is even a load of antipodeans living in London. Which ironically is the least English city in the whole of England (in my opinion naturallement).

At this point if not already locked into the ABs Mauger is on the thresh-hold to qualify as English for example. It's so easy to do so through residency.

[Havak]

Actually Finbar some clubs do have academies and are churning out darn fine young players. Jonno just is not picking them.

Saints, Tigers and Wasps are doing well here. At the other end of the scale Sarries and even Exiles do NOTHING whatsoever to develop young English talent.

Tigers can't prop England up alone - though producing Croft, Youngs and Cole is not a bad contribtuion is it?

What truly baffles me is Jon Clarke at Saints - English and a better player than Ashton IMO but he just isn't being considered.

[finbar]

I couldn't agree more that there are some academies turning out talented young players. But not enough. Academies or players. There's no real incentive for the clubs not to import ready-mades. If a limit on foreigners came into being - which it never will - you would have to see more talented youth coming through. Though, as you say, whether J**** would select them is another matter.

Couldn't agree more about Clarke. I'd also try Waldouck in front of Hape.

[Havak]

I agree entirely - I am sure Hape is there simply to cap him and lock him into the flag.

It's more serious than you might think. Those sides with academies are churning out 30 young domestic players every year. Some of them are seriously talented. Some of those are being lost to the game entirely because there are no top flight squad berths for them to head to and there is such a gap between first and second tier they can miss the boat with their devlopment.

But truly Finbar I could pick an England side entirely U25 that I think would have made a far better showing in the autumn. And if I can do so why can't a man who was a far better player than myself? Unyielding will as a player is an assett - refusal to ever change direction as a coach is a weakness however?

We can't limit foreigners thanks to that wonderful EU directive on restraint of trade AND the Kolpak agreement. Voluntary agreements won't work because the clubs that have lost their souls (and again I would pick on Sarries and Exiles foremost) would simply ignore them.

So we are just back to the disasterous way the RFU handled going Professional (to remind you they assumed they could keep all the money, not pay players still, and call players up from clubs whenever they wished with no financial aspect).

On a different note I am getting keener and keener to see rucking allowed properly again - the game needs it.

[finbar]

Yes, rucking should be allowed again. As, obviously, opposed to stamping. It will never happen. The game has been sanitised in the interests of both marketing and not frightening Mum out of letting her little boy play the game. Same thing has happened with AFL in Australia. I grew up with an interesting game full of contests. I see it occasionally now on Sky Italy - yes, they show highlights of AFL, with Italian commentary - and the game has turned into basketball with virtually no contact. If a player even blind-turns and accidentally collides with an (unseen) umpire, he's suspended. Pathetic.

I recall mentioning a Premiership game last year - and I think it involved Outer Mercia - where the starting front rows were 2/3 foreign. After an injury replacement, it became 5/6 foreign. Enough said. The whole ridiculous irony is that the best of the young front row talent - and certainly capable of competing at the frequently very average 6 Nations level - is either in the Saxons squad or not selected full stop. Not to mention the other numbers from 4 to 15. I think it's time someone issued a fatwah against the Andrew-J**** nexus.

[Havak]

Sign me up.

In the defence of Tigers even last season they were capable of fielding an all English tight five from the squad (and did in some minor games). And the Bok lock has been farmed off to Leeds now - all our locks are English AFAIK, as our 2/3 of our hookers and 2/3 of our props!

Okay let's do my annual recap of our 37 man first team squad:

English 25
Irish 3
Kiwi 3
Arg 2
Samoa 1
Italian 1
Welsh 1 (dear old Mefyn in his twilight)
Aussie 1 (some big powerful fella)

One of the English props was born in RSA but lived and went to school here as a lad which by this threads standards means he is 100% English.

Not too bad is it Finbar? However apart form Wasps very few other Premiership sides have this same weighting!

[finbar]

Outer Mercia usually comes to grief in the birthplace department beyond #8. Well, okay, #9 or #10. Regardless, they're not the major offenders, and the bottom line is that it's the pursuit of the Premiership that's costing English rugby. Not to mention, of course, the hierarchy.

I've just made an appalling discovery. I have to go back to Australia for a bit less than a fortnight. If that's not bad enough, I'm going to miss the first round of the 6 Nations! Fox Sports used not to show the games. If they do now, I'll have to find someone with the channels and watch at some unGodly hour!

[kittenOFchaos]

Sign me up.

In the defence of Tigers even last season they were capable of fielding an all English tight five from the squad (and did in some minor games). And the Bok lock has been farmed off to Leeds now - all our locks are English AFAIK, as our 2/3 of our hookers and 2/3 of our props!

Okay let's do my annual recap of our 37 man first team squad:

English 25
Irish 3
Kiwi 3
Arg 2
Samoa 1
Italian 1
Welsh 1 (dear old Mefyn in his twilight)
Aussie 1 (some big powerful fella)

One of the English props was born in RSA but lived and went to school here as a lad which by this threads standards means he is 100% English.

Not too bad is it Finbar? However apart form Wasps very few other Premiership sides have this same weighting!

Sale have 23 English, which isn't far off...we've alot of Welsh, a Ukrainian and a German and a few Samoans, a Scot and a Frenchie in there for good measure.

Wouldn't be surprised if most of the premiership teams have around the same numbers...Leeds are probably more Anglo-dominated.

[Havak]

Sale also have an Academy - albeit without a great record - there was no suggestion on my part Sale are not doing their bit.

I might break down the Sarries squad for interest - the Kolpak agreement would in theory allow them to have 37 Boks.

Finbar is right of course - the difference in priority twixt clubs and country is hurting English rugby badly. And he also knows there is no solution as long as the UK is part of the EU. Restraint of trade between EU nationalities is illegal here so we can't have a closed shop like, say, the Kiwi S14 franchises. The clubs would be hauled over the coals by the EU. Only two 'foreigners' can take the field at the same time in a Premiership side - which might confuse a causal observer of any fixture. Passports of convenience play a large part there.

'Foreigners' are non-EU citizens in this context.

[kittenOFchaos]

Sale also have an Academy - albeit without a great record - there was no suggestion on my part Sale are not doing their bit.

Gaskell looks very promising once he bulks up.

In the Sale squad I forgot to point our we've one NZer and a Spaniard too.

Edit: according to Wiki we've 26 English players...different from their player profiles on the club site.

Saracens according to Wiki have 18 English, 9 Saffers, 3 Italians, 2 Welsh and a few others.

[kittenOFchaos]

Sale lost to the Blue

Damned Xavier Rush...these NZ exports the Welsh rely upon

[LDiCesare]

If a limit on foreigners came into being - which it never will -

I'm not sure I agree with your pessimism (or optimism, if you consider england losign a good thing ). French rugby tries to impose a restriction not on nationality, but on players having learnt their rugby in France, which amounts mostly to the same thing (though we'd get that english full back allowed for isntance). If this passes (I didn't check exactly whether the clubs managed to fight it off or not, nor when), it effectively meanns French clubs will have to have academies and use the players from these. There's no reason why the English couldn't come up with some similar system.

Yes, rucking should be allowed again. As, obviously, opposed to stamping.

No way. The rucking/stamping distinction has been invented by Brits who only because almost no French player is bright enough to make the difference. And the few who can forget it after 2 minutes on the pitch.