Rugby - New Year, New Coaches, New Laws

[Caligastia]

Hmmmm...I guess that depends on how much assimilation I will allow.

[Joe Kick Ass]

http://rugbydump.blogspot.com/2008/0...nder-elvs.html

This is league. This is league. Plain as f*cking day, this is league.

[kittenOFchaos]

Just another way to complicate an already complex to ref game.

[finbar]

Jeez, Havak, I only caught a glimpse of the replay of the Cipriani try on Sky's sport highlights so I didn't get the names or numbers of the slack, oafish-looking defenders.

[Havak]

Did you get the number of the slack oafish referee though?

One of Chris White's worst games ever - I was hoping you had seen the whole game so I could ask you about some specific incidents he got totally wrong.

It's not like Wasps need such massive help anyway.

Lets hope Saracens can put two good games together for once - Ryan Jones is currently really getting on my nerves with his "Ospreys destined for greatness" rubbish. He should leave such hyperbole to his coach (who also spouts a good line in nonsense).

[finbar]

They only showed the try in the sports news. The match wasn't shown live but replayed yesterday. I was busy yesterday cooking for ten for dinner. Odds are it will be replayed during the week. I'll keep an eye out.

Ospreys can look very good. Sometimes even better. I don't think Sarries have the class to stop them. Leicester, in form, have the muscle, control, skill and counter-attacking prowess to hurt them, though. In form.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
Did you get the number of the slack oafish referee though?

I don't think I've ever seen a ref have a good game at Welford Road; judging by the perpetual booing from the crowd of course...

Originally posted by Havak
Lets hope Saracens can put two good games together for once - Ryan Jones is currently really getting on my nerves with his "Ospreys destined for greatness" rubbish. He should leave such hyperbole to his coach (who also spouts a good line in nonsense).

Perhaps he should make the distinction that they are "destined for greatness" as a region? A certain team in the midlands seem to have already asserted themselves as the best club in the world. Don't think they're playing next weekend though...


I didn't get to see the match in full either, but it was nice seeing Hipkiss and Varndell follow up last week with another couple of defensive howlers. I can honestly say, Havak, I wish them both the best in their efforts to secure places in the England XV.

And it was nice seeing the back in a scrum cap demoted to fullback, also.

[Havak]

The crowd booing at Welford Road is a very recent development indeed since the footy fans started to infiltrate (circa 2000). Before that displeasure was registered only by a slow hand clap. One exception to that was a raucous cheer when Neil Back pushed Steve Lander over after his cup robbery in 1996.

I think Ryan Jones should have just said we can be a great team and leave it at that. You are quite right the mantle of worlds best club side is already taken - though subjective views on this forum will have it as several different sides.

I can honestly say, Havak, I wish them both the best in their efforts to secure places in the England XV.

Then you might come to regret this - both these boys behind a dominating pack can do great damage. All players make mistakes - in my opinion both these lads have postives that outweigh the negatives.

I should also point out that Wasps could have scored all three of those tries against a lot of other sides too.

Has Jonny Murphy done something to upset you? I thought he did quite well at FB (certainly coped with the high balls well).

And before anyone asks - I totally condemn Rabeni's eye gouging. Gouging is a real bug bear of mine and he certainly deserves the punishment he got.

[finbar]

The things I do for you, Havak. Last night I discovered that Tigers -v- Wasps was being replayed at 6 o'clock this morning. Sigh. So up I got. Twenty minutes late. I think the score was 14-6 to Wasps when I tuned in. Unless Chris White made some appalling errors in those first twenty minutes, I'm not sure that his effort was as dreadful as you suggested.

Yes, there were mistakes - missing Sackey's deliberate slap forward inside the 22; the bizarre decision to award the scrum to Wasps under the posts just before half time because they were going forward, which they certainly weren't; missing the late and arguably illegal tackle on Crane by Haskell - but, at the same time, Varndell should have been yellow carded for booting the ball into touch when on the ground and offside. So, yes, mistakes, but I've seen worse refereeing.

Wasps were too sharp on the day. I still couldn't make out who missed the tackle on Cipriani, but it was costly.

And I thought Murphy was terrific at full back.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by Havak
Then you might come to regret this - both these boys behind a dominating pack can do great damage.

There's a fair few others who can do that to be fair. Brian Moore mentioned something of this in his write up...

"It also showed why you have to select players on a consistent set of criteria. Last week Harry Ellis, Andy Goode, Dan Hipkiss and Tom Varndell, of Leicester, looked like England players; on Saturday, because the pack did not dominate, they did not excel."

I think that's about right. Do you really think Varndell would get game time at Blues/Ospreys? I can't see it.

As for Hipkiss, taking 12 as his position, there seem to be a lot of players in front of him in the pecking order? Personally, I'm not so clear as to what makes him an international 12 anyway...

Originally posted by Havak
Has Jonny Murphy done something to upset you? I thought he did quite well at FB (certainly coped with the high balls well).

Murphy wears a scrum cap too? Whoops, didn't notice that. I was referring to the other fullback. You know, the Lions 10...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Joe Kick Ass
"It also showed why you have to select players on a consistent set of criteria. Last week Harry Ellis, Andy Goode, Dan Hipkiss and Tom Varndell, of Leicester, looked like England players; on Saturday, because the pack did not dominate, they did not excel."

I think that's about right.

Me too.

As for Hipkiss, taking 12 as his position, there seem to be a lot of players in front of him in the pecking order?

Who? Not that I think he's a 12 anyway. Maybe a 13.

[Havak]

And I think Moore is stating the ruddy obvious to be honest - so far be it from me to dissuade either of you.

Finbar - you named two mistakes that cost Tigers probable trys (and therefore the game). I make that dreadful refereeing myself.

And yes Varndell should have been carded.

As for whether he would get game time at Blues or Ospreys - he should but I wouldn't trust either coach to select him.

I've seen more of him than anyone else on this board - he could be the equal of Shane Williams IMO. In fact he has scored on occassions where I'm not sure Shane would have (I have never seen anything else like the try he scored against Exiles at Welford Road). He is a huge talent - but if I am the only one who sees it then so be it.

I'll have to hope he scores a hat trick if we whup Wales (Ospreys) won't I.

*edit* Hipkiss is a 13. I would not pick him at 12 for England (I'd leave Wilko there). Maugers injury absence has him covering 12 for Tigers. He is the type of centre that appeals to old forwards as he stays on his feet well at the contact. Do we have better 13 options? Probably Tait at the moment. Not too many more come to mind to be honest. Definitely NOT tank face Noon!

Long term Tom Youngs may be an England 12 - but none of you will have seen him yet.

[Joe Kick Ass]

Originally posted by finbar
Who? Not that I think he's a 12 anyway. Maybe a 13.

Well perhaps not "a lot", but Flood, Geraghty and Hodgson were all in the 6N squad if we're talking 12s.

I don't think Hipkiss is particularly a 12 or 13 tbh. I think he can run a line, and can give a target, but I think his positioning is to a team's preference really. Cardiff would play him at 12, to suit our two genuine OCs. I think all the above are better 12s, and Tait, imo, is a far better 13. I just don't see him cutting it at international level. It's not like he's young either. He's the same age as Henson - compare and contrast...

Also, IIRC, Leicester were willing to let Hipkiss go to Cardiff a few years ago.

Originally posted by Havak
And I think Moore is stating the ruddy obvious to be honest - so far be it from me to dissuade either of you.

I think being able to play off a more-often-than-not dominant pack, in a league of such strength that it allows Harlequins to break the top three, is probably not a great indicator of international ability. Considering your relative strength, you could probably make a number of players look equally impressive.

But then again, tiggers are fourth so maybe they aren't that dominant after all.

Originally posted by Havak
I've seen more of him than anyone else on this board - he could be the equal of Shane Williams IMO.

I think you can understand why some people might detect some bias when:
you compare a 3 cap* club player, who can't dislodge the awesome wing combination of Vainokolo/Sackey, with the most prolific try scorer in the history of northern hemisphere rugby.

I think he's just a runner.

*I had to go to wiki to check his caps, but I also noted that according to that page, he's no faster than Mark Jones.

[finbar]

Finbar - you named two mistakes that cost Tigers probable trys (and therefore the game). I make that dreadful refereeing myself.

If I recall, and bear in mind that it was 7am, Tigers were awarded a penalty very shortly after the Sackey slap forward and not far from the same spot. They kicked for goal.

My heart was in my mouth several times when Varndell was under defensive pressure.

Tait, imo, is a far better 13

IMHO, he's one of the most talented players in the England mix. Not sure where, though. Not strong enough for 13, I fear.

[Havak]

No faster than the dump truck Mark Jones ? I think that proves my point about actually watching the lad (rather than trusting third person stats?).

I think he's just a runner.

But you felt it needed this extra emphasis anyway I see?

The lad has quite a smart rugby brain - better going forward admittedly.

Let’s be honest I think the only way Tom will prove anything to you is by having a great game against Ospreys. Assuming he gets picked.

No comparison twixt our centres however – Danny has played an RWC final and Gavin never will. You under rate Danny (and greatly over rate Gavin) but I’ll never change your mind on either. I suspect he would have kept his place in the 6N but for the groin operation he had after the RWC. Of the Welsh centres Shanklin is head and shoulders the best player – by a country mile. Never seems to get the same level of attention though does he? Wonder why? Maybe he needs to turn orange or get a Welsh princess up the duff?

Hodgson is a fly half – as is Geraghty (he also plays 12). Flood is a good option at 12 which is his preferred position.

Your digs about Tigers and the English league find me quite immune. Fourth is more than good enough to defend our title after all. We are currently champions if you need a reminder. And Anglo-Welsh cup holders.

I tend to talk about Tigers players most because I see them most. I suspect I do have some natural bias. Then again I respect quality where I see it – Shanks, Ryan Jones and even old Martyn Williams (who is having a golden autumn – I never use to rate him much).

But don’t feed me any old tosh about Williams being automatically better than Tom simply because the Welsh are sensible enough to pick him. Tom only has three caps because our selectors simply aren’t as clever as me.

Roll on the autumn tests – I’m keen to see a grounding occur in Cardiff. Who do Wales have this year. Fiji hopefully.