Rank Today's Hockey Goaltenders, Top 5

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Tingkai's top 5

1) Martin Brodeur

The difference between you and me is that I take an unbaised look at the top goalies and pick the best one in the league, rather than the guy who is or was on my home team.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The difference between you and me is that I take an unbaised look at the top goalies and pick the best one in the league, rather than the guy who is or was on my home team.

It has nothing to do with his team. He's the legit #1 goalie in the league, for reasons I have carefully explained.

Are you ****ing kidding? No team can win the Cup without superb goaltending. That was the fact before the lockout and it is still a fact now. I can't believe I even have to write this basic fact.

Um. Duh. No kidding?

You don't have to write that as a basic fact, because it was never contested. Please follow along.

If you going to judge the best goalie in the league today, you need to look at who has proven they can handle the pressure and win, Brodeur can do it and Hasek can do it.

Kiprusoff can also shown he can handle the pressure and win.

The fact is Kiprusoff hasn't been around as Brodeur and Hasek. You're favouring guys who are older and been around longer, but not necessarily the top goaltenders today. They're certainly up there, but they're getting old and that's why they're having the odd 70% svp awful night, while Kiprusoff is not.

I recognize Hasek and Brodeur have VERY good records and obviously have done a lot in bringing their team the cup, but there's so much more to analyzing a player's abilities than counting how many cups teams they were on won.

That's the difference between you and me. You'd build a team full of 40 year old players who've won cups, and I'd build a team based on things such as how good the players play today and their potential for tomorrow.

This is why I recognize, for instance, Phaneuf is a way better defenseman than McCabe is.

[Asher]

Just a quick question for you, Tingkai.

Last year, when "Kippersoft" won the Vezina, was he also an inferior goalie to Brodeur then?

If not, why is he worse this year?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

It has nothing to do with his team. He's the legit #1 goalie in the league, for reasons I have carefully explained.

You haven't provided any decent reasons. All you do is cheer for your home team.

Kippersoft is not leading the league in wins, he's not first in GAA, he's not first in Sv%, he's not first in shutouts. He's never won a championship. He's part of the pack that are at the top, but not the best. Hell, he's not even the best of the pack. Giguere has more wins (GAA, Sv% and SO are a split)

At this point in the season, Hasek leads in GAA and shut out and is third in wins. Plus, Hasek has won championships (cup and Olympic gold). So if you're just looking at who is the best goalie today, then he is number one. The problem is that he tends to pout and is unreliable over the long run.

So then there is Marty. He's no.2 in shutouts, No. 2 in wins. More importantly, he always does better in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's won championships. He has proven he can handle the pressure. He's a champion. Giguere, Turco, Huet and Kippersoft can't say that.

So the top five goalies today are:

Brodeur
Hasek
Giguere
Kippersoft
Turco

(Huet and Nabokov are contenders, but I'd give the nod to Turco cause he's playing more games)

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Just a quick question for you, Tingkai.

Last year, when "Kippersoft" won the Vezina, was he also an inferior goalie to Brodeur then?

If not, why is he worse this year?

He finished the regular season with the best stats, but when the chips were really down, he didn't do enough. Brodeur got his team through the first round. Kippersoft did not.

And Brodeur won the Vezina in 2004 when Kippersoft took the Flames to the finals. In that paricular year, Kippersoft was on fire.

What will happen in this playoff? Only a fool would bet against Brodeur. As for Kippersoft, who knows.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Kippersoft is not leading the league in wins, he's not first in GAA, he's not first in Sv%, he's not first in shutouts.

I love this. Brodeur and Kipper have the same amount of shutouts. You say this by saying "Kiprusoff is not first in shutouts", while "Brodeur is no. 2 in shutouts."

Yeah, you're unbiased alright. You've got an axe to grind with Calgary, and you're still recovering from your insight that first Kiprusoff would collapse in the playoffs as he's inexperienced, and then he was simply a "flash in the pan". You don't see enough hockey games to know what you're talking about here, buddy.

At this point in the season, Hasek leads in GAA and shut out and is third in wins. Plus, Hasek has won championships (cup and Olympic gold). So if you're just looking at who is the best goalie today, then he is number one. The problem is that he tends to pout and is unreliable over the long run.

So then there is Marty. He's no.2 in shutouts, No. 2 in wins. More importantly, he always does better in the playoffs than in the regular season. He's won championships.

I've discussed this at length above, which you are apparently incapable of reading.

Brodeur has had several nights with a savepercentage in the 70s. That is awful. He has consistency problems. He doesn't regularly steal games for his team the same way that Kiprusoff does.

You are muddying the water with stats that are misleading. Wins, for instance, is a function of team play, not goalies. GAA is correlated accordingly. sv% is the most important indicator of the goaltenders, where Brodeur is behind Kiprusoff by a good margin. But that's even not the only thing to look at -- up at the top the stats are close.

What we need to look at is which goaltenders are RELIABLE (not injury prone like Hasek) and CONSISTENT (Brodeur has not shown to be as consistent as Kiprusoff this year). So, while the stats are indeed close, the nod goes to Kiprusoff today.

He has proven he can handle the pressure. He's a champion.

Kiprusoff has proven he can handle the pressure. You're on drugs if you think game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals is NOT handling pressure. Kiprusoff was awesome in the playoffs. If you watched them, you might know this.

Brodeur
Hasek
Giguere
Kippersoft
Turco

(Huet and Nabokov are contenders, but I'd give the nod to Turco cause he's playing more games)

Honestly buddy, watch more hockey. It seems to me that you either have no idea that Hasek, Brodeur, and Giguere have consistency problems or you don't think consistency is a desirable attribute in a #1 goaltender. Either way, laughable.

This list you made would've been viable in 2003 or so. Which is, amusingly, probably the last time you regularly watched hockey.

[Asher]

He finished the regular season with the best stats, but when the chips were really down, he didn't do enough. Brodeur got his team through the first round. Kippersoft did not.

You are aware the Vezina is awarded based on regular season play, not playoffs? Yes?

And the playoff stats last year...you have to be kidding me if you're using that as an example of Brodeur's superiority.

Last year's playoffs:
Brodeur: 9GP, 2.25 GAA .923 svp
Kiprusoff: 7GP, 2.24 GAA .921 svp

Originally posted by Tingkai
And Brodeur won the Vezina in 2004 when Kippersoft took the Flames to the finals. In that paricular year, Kippersoft was on fire.

Kiprusoff only played the last half of the year.

You're so out of your league here, Tingkai. Kiprusoff was "on fire" through 2003-2004, 2005-2006, and now 2006-2007. At what point does he stop being "on fire" when you concede that he's an excellent goaltender?

I'll also note in 2004, Brodeur failed his team by your measure. Didn't even make it past 5 games! What a loser who can't handle the pressure...

[Flubber]

On my criteria as the goalie I'd like to have on my team right now , today I wouldn't rank Hasek up there. ON any given game maybe but as the goalie to take me through the rest of the season, I would rank 5 guys ahead of him. The question about Hasek quite frankly is durability-- I know ANYONE can get injured but when I look at his history, I question whther he will last through the season and playoffs

[Flubber]

On the Kipper/Brodeur thing, to me it is very close between the two. But it comes down tothis if I could trade Kipper for any goalie in the league , even-up, would I? My answer is no.

While Asher goes over the top with rhetoric sometimes , the fact is that Kipper has been stellar. At his worst he has been very good.

OH and looking at the last twoplayoff runs. Kipper was never CLOSE to being a reason for any defeats. He did his job and never folded. Frankly he holds up well to pressure.

FRankly the only reason I rank Kipper ahead of Brodeur is the feeling that Brodeur is just a tiny bit past his prime.

On current performance. Huet has to be up there. That save % is awesome. I have mixed feelings on whether or not I should consider that he plays a bit less than most of the workhorse goalies

[Tingkai]

Oh, this is a classic. You're saying Brodeur is over the hill even though he's no 2 in wins, No. 2 for shutout, a GAA of 2.19 and a Sav % of .920. Yeah awful stats.

Meanwhile, the two of you are trying to flob the crazy idea that the guy who went to the finals and lost, is better than the guy who went to the final and won. Yeah, right.


And if Kippersoft is so great, how come Giguere has more wins and a better GAA. Or Turco, again, more wins than Kippersoft and a better GAA. Out of four potential stats, Giguere and Turco are two better than Kippersofts one (Sv%.

So sorry folks, Kippersoft is maybe the fourth best goalie these days and that's being charitable. He's really fifth behind Giguere and Turco.

Oh, and Huet ain't anywhere near the top five.

[Asher]

You really have not watched much hockey recently, have you?

This is truly incredible, the pathetic way you spin everything here. Why do you have such an axe to grind against the Flames? It's delusional.

Are you that scared? You seem to be terrified that the teams from outwest are overshadowing your "historic" Leafs and you're in some kind of frenzied damage control.

I watch TONS of hockey as I subscribe to NHL Centre Ice, I have seen these goalies through countless games recently. I've seen some steal games, others lose games for people. I've seen the teams that play infront of them, the shot qualities against them, and the kind of saves they can make to keep a team in the game.

Brodeur is certainly a top goalie, but he's not THE top goalie. Not today, not this season. Sorry bud. Watch hockey sometime.

Also, read what is being said. Nobody has called Brodeur over the hill, nor have they called him "awful". Quite the opposite, in fact I ranked him pretty high in my list... W and GAA are not the best indicators of a goalies play. Giguere's numbers in particular -- have you seen Anaheim play? An average goalie would get similar numbers with that kind of defense corps and team play.

[Asher]

And I find it hilarious that you talk about handling the pressure, etc. Did you watch the playoffs last year?

Byzgalov's the reason the Ducks beat the Flames and advanced to the next round. Giguere sucked ass.

This is the "consistency" part of the problem I've mentioned...

[Tingkai]

No, the funniest thing ever in any hockey thread has to be you going : "duh, I don't know why Tingkai's making such a big deal out of Brodeur winning three Stanley Cup. Dat don't mean he a good goalie."

****ing classic.

[Asher]

Yeah, cause when I said he was stellar that means he's not a good goalie...

[Asher]

The longest losing streak for the Leafs was 10 games back in 67. Think about it.

Once a loser....

Toronto has never been consistent, which is why they have a pathetically small number of championships compared to other old teams, like the Habs.