Are You Ready for Some Football

[-Jrabbit]

I get that Young's QB rating was 30th.
But I also recall your many defenses of Vick's low ratings, Imran, saying traditional ratings don't reflect his value as an all-around weapon and leader.

So why don't those arguments apply to Young, who went 8-5 as a starter for a team that was universally considered hopeless?

Both you and Sloww are trying to have it both ways.

[SlowwHand]

No, I'm not.

Turnips are food, steak is food.
Turnips are a vegetable, steak isn't.

Vick is a QB, Young is a QB.
Vick is a vegetable, Young isn't.

Different things.

[-Jrabbit]

Shut up Sloww. I'm trying to have a serious discussion with Imran.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
I get that Young's QB rating was 30th.
But I also recall your many defenses of Vick's low ratings, Imran, saying traditional ratings don't reflect his value as an all-around weapon and leader.

So why don't those arguments apply to Young, who went 8-5 as a starter for a team that was universally considered hopeless?

Both you and Sloww are trying to have it both ways.

They ABSOLUTELY do apply to Young. I think Young will be a fantastic player. I'm trying to point out to Slow that if you praise Young and call Vick a failure you are having it both ways. I'm not slighting Young at all. I'm just trying to point out that he is very, very similar to Vick.

[q=Lord Avalon]Vick played 8 games in 2001. Comparing his 2nd season to Young's 1st season doesn't seem right to me.[/q]

Even though Vick was 22 in his 2nd season while Young was 23 in his 1st season? It does mean that Young had a few more years of seasoning in college (he didn't have to make the same choice as Vick who knew he'd be taken #1 in the draft early). People forget that Vick was very young when he came out. He went to college early, and he's only 26 right now.

[SlowwHand]

And I say again, and I know I'm supposed to shut up, but that's incorrect.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nope, you are just trying to rationalize. Though when the bandwagon leaves Young as well, I hope you don't sprain an ankle as you try to jump off of it so quickly so that you can say you never were on it .

Young is a QB in a Vick-like mode. He'll have average passing stats, but will make very good use of his legs to move the chains and be a viable dual threat. Problem is that some who are fawning over Young, but disdaining Vick, don't want their hypocrisy and blinders pointed out.

But I do like watching them squirm when trying to rationalize it.

[-Jrabbit]

Very well, carry on boys.

[Jaguar]

I'd take Young over Vick in a heartbeat, like most of the people in this thread. And no, Imran, it's not because I'm a hypocrite.

You're comparing Young's rookie season to Vick's first season as a starter. That might be a fair comparison. The problem is, Vick's first season as a starter was also his best season as a starter. Vick has regressed since then.

To make an analogy, that's like saying you'd rather have Michael Clayton of Tampa Bay instead of Marques Colston or Santonio Holmes because Clayton had the superior rookie season.

You might not be aware of this, from watching Vick languish in mediocrity for six years, but most quarterbacks actually get better as time goes on, almost as if they were listening to their coaches and learning or something. I know it sounds crazy.

[Jaguar]

Another way of looking at it:

Why not compare Vick now to Young?

I've multiplied all of Young's stats by 16/14 because he only threw a combined four passes in Weeks 1 and 3, where he didn't start.

Michael Vick
26 Years Old
6th Year
2474 yards passing, 20 touchdowns, 13 interceptions 52.6% completion rate, 6.38 yards per attempt, rating of 75.7. 45 sacks, 303 yards lost.
1039 yards rushing, 2 touchdowns, 8.4 yards per attempt

Vince Young
23 Years Old
Rookie
2513 yards passing, 14 touchdowns, 15 interceptions, 51.5% completion rate, 6.16 yards per attempt, rating of 66.7. 29 sacks, 147 yards lost.
631 yards rushing, 6.7 yards per attempt, 8 touchdowns.

The first thing to notice is that both have the same touchdown total. Young has an affinity for keeper plays in the red zone (like the game-winning score in the Rose Bowl) so he passes less and runs more in the red zone, which is fine by me. It doesn't matter how you score the touchdown. Vick's higher number of passing touchdowns is the primary reason for his higher quarterback rating.

The next thing to look at is how well they move the ball down the field in general as passers. Vick appears to have an edge in most statistical categories, except for one very glaring one. Vick takes more sacks than almost any quarterback in the league, because he does a lot of running around trying to make plays instead of going through his reads. If you include sacks in yards per attempt, you get an entirely different picture. (This statistic is called net yards per pass attempt.) Vick this year has 5.13 net yards per pass attempt. Young has 5.42. So, while Vick appears to be gaining more yards per pass, he actually isn't. (The sacks also mean that Young is actually throwing fewer interceptions per pass attempt and more completions per pass attempt as well.) If half of Vick's 45 sacks, (which average a league-high loss of seven yards) were counted in his number of attempts, his quarterback rating would not be pretty at all.

Vick is still clearly the superior runner by a healthy margin. But how much does his advantage in running offset his advantage in passing? This is a somewhat unorthodox stat, but I think it's a fair one. Vick has gotten the ball 556 times and gained 3210 yards, with passing, running, and sacks included. Young (prorated to sixteen games) has gotten the ball 531 times and gained 2997 yards in total with passing, running, and sacks included.

The average Vick dropback gains 5.77 yards.
The average Young dropback gains 5.64 yards.

In short, the two quarterbacks are really pretty equivalent, except one is in his sixth year, and hasn't improved at all for the last four years. The other is a rookie, whose quarterback rating was 56.4 in September, 61.6 in October, 67.2 in November, and 72.0 in December.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Jaguar
To make an analogy, that's like saying you'd rather have Michael Clayton of Tampa Bay instead of Marques Colston or Santonio Holmes because Clayton had the superior rookie season.

Worst analogy ever . Clayton has completely dropped off from his rookie year (though there is an interesingly line of discussion on why that has happened). Vick has gone down from his first year as a starter, but not all that far.

You might not be aware of this, from watching Vick languish in mediocrity for six years, but most quarterbacks actually get better as time goes on, almost as if they were listening to their coaches and learning or something. I know it sounds crazy.

And I'm not sure you are aware of this but sometimes coaching has an effect on the development of players, and some coaches can actually bring out the best in a player where they languished before, see Rich Gannon for one example. I know, it's nuts. Interestingly enough, Greg Knapp has been his OC since his 2001 season (since he was injured in 2002 and didn't play all that much). That may have had somewhat of an adverse effect (another interesting factoid is that when Knapp was OC of the 49ers from 2001-2003, Jeff Garcia's numbers declined every year).


You can look at Young and be excited about his future, but I'm not sure how someone can look at him and see him eventually having a 90+ QB rating or something (from the way people talk they think he'll be throwing for 3500 yards and rushing for 800, all the while putting up fantastic passer rating numbers). Young will be a mid-high 70s or low 80s passer rating QB with around 600-700 rushing yards.

[Zopperoni]

The Detroit Lions' 2006 Ed Block Courage Award goes to... Rickey Sandoval, director of security

Probably for his good deeds in stopping the hordes of fans protesting against Matt Millen

[Dis]

Originally posted by Jaguar
I'd take Young over Vick in a heartbeat, like most of the people in this thread. And no, Imran, it's not because I'm a hypocrite.

You're comparing Young's rookie season to Vick's first season as a starter. That might be a fair comparison. The problem is, Vick's first season as a starter was also his best season as a starter. Vick has regressed since then.

To make an analogy, that's like saying you'd rather have Michael Clayton of Tampa Bay instead of Marques Colston or Santonio Holmes because Clayton had the superior rookie season.

You might not be aware of this, from watching Vick languish in mediocrity for six years, but most quarterbacks actually get better as time goes on, almost as if they were listening to their coaches and learning or something. I know it sounds crazy.

I'd take neither.

running QB's

[-Jrabbit]

Jason Taylor wins AP Defensive Player of the Year in a surprisingly close race with Champ Bailey.

Taylor earned 22 of a possible 50 votes. Champ Bailey, who picked off ten passes this season, earned 16 votes. Shawne Merriman surprisingly only earned six votes as he was penalized for missing four games due to a steroid suspension.

Jan. 5 - 8:27 am et

[Lord Avalon]

Jason Taylor da man!

[Darsnan]

Originally posted by Lord Avalon
Jason Taylor da man!