Rugby - Hands Off Green!

[Havak]

I can edit that for happier reading.

“So there goes A. Robinson”

Much better.

Giteau? Didn't he take a quick tap and go over before the Welsh defence even reacted? Isn't that what a good scrummy should do? Or a good 'Fly half/Inside Centre' being played at scrummy anyway.

I’ve dredged up the team England beat 47-13

Henson is missing, Gethin Jenkins is missing (from the starting line up), Ryan Jones and Shanklin too (those would be the missing Lions – but their replacements are hardly awful?). So is Cockbain but arguing he is higher class than Sidoli is a bit laughable. This isn’t a weak side by any means!!! I fear the injury excuse does not hold water – the Jones boys make for a solid front row, the locks are a pair that are together now, the loose forwards are no mugs, the half backs are the first choice, Williams-Jones-Thomas at the back? So how badly under strength? Or is it that Hook had not been unearthed then?

Wales: G Thomas (capt); M Jones, Luscombe, Watkins, S Williams; S Jones, Peel; D Jones, R Thomas, AR Jones, Gough, Sidoli, Charvis, M Williams, Owen.

Replacements: M Davies, G Jenkins, AM Jones, Popham, Cooper, N Robinson, Byrne.

And even worse? They lost to the same core England side that has since gone on to set new lows…

When I say Ruddock debacle, I mean the ousting of a perfectly good coach and the destabilising effect it had on the team...

I misread your meaning – sorry about that.

I have a long standing grudge against Mr ‘Scarlet Blinkers’ Jenkins that goes back to 2002 and a certain semi-final…

[finbar]

Cripes. Doesn't Wales have a defence? 26 points? I could score against them. Havak, too, probably, and without putting down his glass.

[finbar]

Further to the above:

Winger Shane Williams, who scored a fine solo try in the first half, was man-of-the-match and he believes the All Blacks can be beaten.

"We can beat New Zealand," said the Cardiff winger.

"We showed tonight that on our day we can beat anyone ... "

Yeah, a bunch of baby seal clubbers, leaking 26 points in the process.

[kittenOFchaos]

England win!!!!!!!!


How much better that felt and a stirling second half effort, what a relief. Maybe, maybe things will start turning around, but at last we saw some pride and passion and England taking it to the opposition.

As for South Africa, as soon as Butch James went off it all headed downhill from a strong position.

[finbar]

How many - if any - of Butch's tackles either involved his arms or were below the chin?

World Cup-winning captain Martin Johnson believes England should replace Andy Robinson as head coach.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So J**** listens to Havak after all. And for a chap like J****, not knowing for sticking his bib in, publicly anyway, his couple of recent utterances, one on top of the other, are interesting.

Presumably les grenouilles' marginally better performance this time can be put down to their selection of LdiC at hooker.

EDIT. Hey, LdiC, sure you don't have an Australian ancestor? Not that you'd want one. But the Wallabies could do with a hooker at the moment. In fact, they could do with a team.

[kittenOFchaos]

Ireland tonk Australia and the New Zealands beat France but not by so much.

As for AR, I'm going to see what happens next week against SA if there are signs of improvement, then keep AR if it is just more of the same someone else.

People say Brian Ashton, but looking at the backline I'm not so sure, the players pass too soon and don't straighten and draw the man and far too many senseless missed passes. That is his area and it ain't looking good at all.

[LDiCesare]

The French effort was definitely better than last week, but then it couldn't have been worse.
The score (23-11) reflects the match but the French have been lucky that McDonald had a really poor match beginning.
The French attacked very rarely. They kicked far too much to prove dangerous in the first half. Overall, the French had 3 dangerous actions: The one leading to their try and two attacks by the wingers. Fritz tried a little but the backs didn't have enough balls to do much. The All Blacks, on the other hand, constructed their tries thank to a strong pressure in the midfield, with passes right after the tackle and consistently moving forward.
Although the French showed a quite good game, they till lost, which is bad. I'm pretty sure they can do better (Elissalde played better than Yachvili but had to be replaced, too much kicking the ball away) but I'm not sure it would be enough and I don't really see this team beating NZ in the WC if they meet again.
I also wonder why the ref never whistled a pnealty or free kick on any of the many collapsed scrums. I thought the kiwis often engaged when the ref was still saying 'hold', or collapsed immediately when they were not in good position. The French didn't do the same (well they did collapse it once at least, but not as often as the blacks), and as a result managed to suffer from NZ pressure in our own scrums. Considering the ref didn't blow his whistle, they should have cheated a bit more, not letting the All Blacks do it alone.
I also think the AB's holding the ball and kicking it away to prevent the French from playing the ball quickly was so blatantly unfair play that they should have been sent 10 meters backwards the two times when they did that.

All of this doesn't bode too well for the match against Argentina: Forwards beaten in scrums, backs not attacking. Although Ibanez, Vermeulen, Elissalde had a quite good game, it's still unclear who will be or choice 10 and 15. Elhorga played quite well, but he couldn't tackle Rokocoko on the first try and defended against Carter with Jauzion instead of staying inside against Nonu, so I'm not sure whether his match was that good. And his gesture on Rokocoko's try was uncalled for (spreading his leg to prevent the winger from scoring).

[ravagon]

Well, we wouldn't want anyone injured for the highlight match of the Autumn Series: The All Blacks!

The All Blacks vs Wales as the highlight of the season?
I guess it may be the highlight for one of them ...


At least France showed up this time. I was a little disappointed that Michalak wasn't in the side but I vaguely remember something about a recent injury that may've kept him out.


So let me get this straight ... World Cup winning captain Martin Johnson, having publically sidelined the RFU the day before, now puts the blame on the shoulders of the eminent Mr Robinson?
After England actually manage to scrape out a win, and in which the aforementioned Mr Robinson was at least creditted for a number of fairly important substitutions that brought this about?
Now his nibs is stating that Robinson is the problem?
I have to wonder, what would Havak say were it Zinny who'd come up with this little gem?
Havak, of course, being reknowned for, erm, never having shown the slightest shred of bias in any of the dozens of rugby threads in which we've participated.

[Havak]

Michalak is long term injured I believe – to the extent he is not expected to figure in the Six nations.

‘his nibs’ as you put it was being pressured for an opinion by a tabloid reporter – so he gave it. I do feel that his sudden breaking of his long silence is indicating he is ready to move back into rugby to some degree. It’s also certainly true that I believe anything he says should at least be given due consideration (not least because he is somewhat smarter than dear old Zinny). So perhaps we should look at what he actually did say?

"I hate saying this because he and I went through a lot together. But I've seen players pulled off the field for making one mistake. So if you ask me if replacing the head coach at this stage, with 10 months to go before the World Cup, will make a difference, my honest answer is 'yes'."

“There are many reasons England are in the mess they're in but the buck has to stop with the head coach," He had made some very poor selections and decisions before and during games. Ultimately it's his responsibility. I know it hasn't been him dropping the ball or failing to see the gaps or the overlaps. But he has created the environment for these basic errors to happen."

Johnson cited Robinson's removal of captain Martin Corry against Scotland in last season's Six Nations - the match that started England's run of defeats - and that of Charlie Hodgson against Argentina as evidence of poor decisions.

"You never do that," said Johnson of the Corry decision. "It opened up a huge can of worms and it was entirely the coach's making.”

"I thought at the time: 'No, come on!' He has either made Martin captain or he hasn't. The game is won in the last 20 minutes, in any case.”

"'It was like taking Charlie off with 25 to go against Argentina. He wasn't playing well but he was deemed good enough an hour before. He could have turned it round because he was good enough to do so.“

"They didn't take Jonny Wilkinson off at half-time during the World Cup quarter-final against Wales when he was perceived to be having a poor game, did they?"

Seems moderately reasonable – and doesn’t negate his earlier criticism of the RFU?

The interview also took place before Saturdays game – though if Robinson thinks that game solved anything in the longer term he is dreaming. Yes the subs made an impact – the main one being that when Goode came on they managed 20 minutes of good basic rugby – kicking deep to touch for territory and utilising the power of the forwards. If Robinson expects me to be delirious that they managed a whole 20 minutes of solid (if unspectacular) play then he is barking up the wrong tree entirely.

The win was nice of course – but it hasn’t resolved anything at all.

The All Blacks vs Wales as the highlight of the season?

I wouldn’t underestimate their confidence – they really think they have a good shout.

Finbar has already pointed out that Wales are not known for their defence however. I think they will get hammered – but I’ve been wrong once or twice…

How many - if any - of Butch's tackles either involved his arms or were below the chin?

He seemed a lot better than he used to be. Still very physical though. Now injured and on his way home I believe.

But the Wallabies could do with a hooker at the moment. In fact, they could do with a team.

A different front five would probably work wonders.

George has cut the dreadlocks off! Didn’t recognise him. Waugh got sin binned for a bit of silliness – Rogers joined him for running in to join that silliness. Daft lack of discipline.

The TV pundits were intimating that someone in the Wallaby camp complained ahead of the game about matches having to be played in the cold and wet (conditions were indeed atrocious in Dublin). That wasn’t well received by the Irish camp.

I could score against them. Havak, too, probably, and without putting down his glass.

Now let us be fair. I might actually have to put the glass down. And use laughing gas on them first.

[finbar]

Fair suck of the sav! You'd dot the ball down one-handed, without spilling a drop in the other hand.

I listened to the second half of the Ireland match on Five Live (even though the online broadcast was publicised as UK only for rights reasons). It sounded fairly dire from the Wallabies, though the Paddys apparently had a t'riffic first half and against the howling gale. I can quite imagine that the front five remain the problem. They're shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic with their front row. They've got about five options and they keep rotating. Sooner or later they have to settle on a combination and develop it. Which isn't to say it will ever do the job they would like, but it will be the best available. Because there's no one else at home waiting in the wings.

It was important to point out that J****'s comments were made pre-match. And he's only saying what a multitude of others are saying. Well, everyone except the RFU.

People say Brian Ashton, but looking at the backline I'm not so sure, the players pass too soon and don't straighten and draw the man and far too many senseless missed passes. That is his area and it ain't looking good at all.

Yes, quite. I haven't seen the matches, but everything I read agrees with you. But I think the real question is this - is the available talent, or those being chosen anyway, good enough? Silk purses, cows' ears. A bit like the Wallaby front row.

[Havak]

I certainly think it is true that the English pack and Aussie back line added together would make for a better side than either team possesses of it’s own accord right now.

You'd dot the ball down one-handed, without spilling a drop in the other hand.

I’d have to train for a few weeks. In the pub practicing pint stability that is.

though the Paddys apparently had a t'riffic first half and against the howling gale

They did – it was a terrific half of rugby that was unlikely to be matched as conditions kept getting worse through the second half.

It is right that the weather negated the Wallabies strength (that backline). It was a day for old fashioned ground pounders and Ireland had the edge there. In fact their blindside looked like a man possessed at times – a storming performance.

But I think the real question is this - is the available talent, or those being chosen anyway, good enough?

There is talent there – though the combinations being picked astound me at times. But I do suspect there is some strange coaching taking place. The backs were lining up in a bizarre ‘pod’ formation for some plays (i.e. no coherent line) that I couldn’t make sense of. It invited the Boks to run at them – which they did to some good effect.

I think the player talent is capable of being at least competent – but something is missing from the equation at the moment.

[finbar]

Back in the Brumbies' heyday, you would see the most bizarre, even outrageous, arrangements in the backs - everyone standing in a clump behind the pack, everyone spread far and wide apparently randomly, whatever. These were the days of the mercurial David Knox at #10 and P. Howard loitering somewhere nearby. Only when the play unfolded was the logic revealed. Of course they were skilled players - playing in their right positions - working meticulously planned and practised plays. Without those four prerequisites, the same thing ends up (a) failing miserably; and (b) looking stupid in the process.

[Caligastia]

For some reason the NZ/Wales fixture is one of the few that I don't have to pay extra for. And it plays at a decent time for me too - noon on Saturday.

[finbar]

Presumably the name of the programmer at the channel is Cadwgawn Jones.

[Havak]

There is a message in your description of those backs Finbar. Of course I am just a dumb ex-forward (like Mr R) so your meaning remains elusively just out of touch to me…so I’m going to pick a hooker at stand off because I am convinced he will prosper there.

I see Hansen is now talking up Wales. A side the Abs walloped 41-3 twelve months ago and the ABs have improved since.

Good luck to Wales – honestly. They will need it – but them beating the ABs is probably very good for the world game right now.

And talking of luck how about this – Hodgson has ruptured an ACL and will miss the rest of the season (and probably the world cup). Andrew Sheridan has broken his ankle and will miss the rest of the season. Jason White (a super Scottish flanker) has also ruptured an ACL and misses the season.

And the luck part? All three are Sale Sharks players!

So England approach the 6N with Andy Goode in possession of the shirt with Toby Flood chasing (and Olly Barkeley rumoured to join the mix). I like Goodey but he is a somewhat old fashioned fly half and not the dynamic man to counter your Carters, Larkhams, O’Garas and Jones (and I would also have said Jauzion before Frances recent woes).

Troubling times for England still. A nation prays that Wilko can miraculously fix his crocked body.