Rugby - Hands Off Green!

[finbar]

Until I had Sky installed, I had to follow a lot of matches on the 'net. I found it more nerve-wracking than watching!

Ireland -d- All Blacks B. Fun to watch, particularly to see some old-fashioned B. O'Driscoll magic, but a fairly meaningless outing.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

And just to head things off at the pass - I think it's criminal that the All Blacks are the first team in history ever to slow down the ball at the breakdown. Heavens, I watched luminaries like N. Back, J****, and co, for years and never once saw them do it.

That was so dry it left dust in the bottom of my glass.

BBC is reporting that A. Robinson will be asked to resign shortly or will get the boot. Proposed first choice to replace him is one M. Johnson.
Quelle surprise.
I have to wonder whether he'd take it though. From what I've seen (a few scraped together highlights) lately of the English team a lot of their problems don't really seem to stem from coaching. Coaching can have a bit of a roll-on effect, poor substitutions leading to disjointed play, lacking teamwork, etc, but I don't think England can really turn things around in a hurry by switching coaches alone.
Jonno may feel otherwise of course ...

[finbar]

I hate to agree with my sworn enemy VD, but I think he got it pretty right in a spray he delivered the other day - A. Robinson is a good tracksuit coach promoted beyond his abilities. Add to that an old-fashioned conservatism and an obviously large-ish stubborn streak and you've got trouble, particularly in the context of the state of English rugby when he took over.

Sir Clive, before he quit, headed down the wrong road. New blood was needed. He didn't bother. A. Robinson took over. He continued down Sir Clive's road because original thought doesn't occur to him.

So the last couple of years have been wasted.

Ultimately, responsibility has to rest with the RU. They knew A. Robinson, they appointed him. And stuck with him. The RU, like Sir Clive, either didn't understand or chose to ignore the fact that the World Cup win was the end of an England rugby era.

They had to look to the future. They didn't.

[Havak]

Well I must look on the bright side – before mid-day (GMT) I should have the news I have been waiting for – the BBC heard yesterday that numpty will be asked to resign this week and will be sacked if he does not.

Given he is due to the coaches debriefing at HQ at about 11am this morning it should all be over by lunch time – and jolly good riddance.

Snapsnot criticisms from this game - his choice of locks let him down badly – Jones lacked the physicality to match the Boks and Palmer was just a walking Bok penalty as far as I could see. Also Sanderson is simply not an international – four poor games in a row must have marked his cards.

the issue isn't our ball retention or possession.

But it was to a certain extent – it is unusual for any England side to be so totally bossed at the contact (and the Bok loosies were very much all over us). It doesn’t help that Robinson has picked an openside that simply isn’t up to the job (what does Lund need to do to get picked – he plays for the champions, Sanderson plays for perennial relegation fodder – more Robinson genius at work!)

Taffys, brave. The other mob, a class above, in cruise mode for about half the match.

The ABs worst game of the tour I think – and they never needed to get their game together to simply cruise through it.

Scary for every other nation – the only challenges seem to be the Boks (who can upset them physically at times) and Ireland (who if everything clicks can match their style most directly).

Now should I praise Wales for the haka debacle?

Having only seen bits of it, it seemed to me A. Goode was pretty limited.

He is pretty limited – but it was also one of his poorer games. Coach chump subbed him with four minutes to go (and the game well lost). What does that do for him or the youngster who replaced him???? Genius coaching at work!

but I don't think England can really turn things around in a hurry by switching coaches alone.
Jonno may feel otherwise of course ...

The problems are deeper – but picking the correct players would be at least a start. The Robinson ‘favourites’ simply have to go (Meers and Sanderson first through the door please!).

As I understand it the idea is to make Jonno the ‘face’ – the man in the suit who faces the camera and gives players the ‘gee up’.

Ashton (backs coach) would become senior coach and work with Wells and Ford(?) on the team and tactics whilst Jonno took all the media side (where turnips other glaring weakness lie).

Ashton was at least a very successful club coach - not something Robinson could ever claim.

It’s a nice idea about Jonno – but I am not at all sure Martin feels ready for this scale of involvement yet (nor may he fancy such a forlorn cause).

Personally I am still dazed after the coaches post match interview on Saturday where he talked of ‘making progress’ and ‘moving forward’ (I only wish I was making that up – at least the interviewer had the sense to laugh in Robinsons face at those gems).

Ultimately, responsibility has to rest with the RU. They knew A. Robinson, they appointed him. And stuck with him. The RU, like Sir Clive, either didn't understand or chose to ignore the fact that the World Cup win was the end of an England rugby era.

Yep. Fair dinkum. Thomas and Barron are extremely culpable for the current mess – and even worse neither of their jobs is even remotely under threat.

Your old mate VD has launched a fresh attack on the “gym monkies” attitude of young English players.

Phil Vickery on the other hand has attacked the fans who boo’ed England off the pitch and defended Robinson – not a smart move by the Bull that one.

But on the plus side Tigers beat Wasps down at their place yesterday.

[finbar]

I watched A. Robinson's post-match interview. Weird stuff. Certainly delusional, but I think there's also an element of siege mentality involved, too.

Other snippets from the weekend:

1. Sky Italy shows Italian club matches. I checked out Parma -v- Padova out of interest. It looks to be about the standard of Sydney first grade club rugby, only defence doesn't seem to occur to anyone. It also seems that the All Blacks D team is biding its time in Italian club rugby. The match started in a heavy mist. At the seventeen minute mark of the second half, it turned into a pea-souper. The game was called off. The match was played at Padova, probably Italy's capital city when it comes to fog.

2. I heard one of the Irish commentators reflecting that R. O'Gara is the #2 fly half in the world. Presumably that makes D. Carter #3.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Havak
The ABs worst game of the tour I think – and they never needed to get their game together to simply cruise through it.

Scary for every other nation – the only challenges seem to be the Boks (who can upset them physically at times) and Ireland (who if everything clicks can match their style most directly).

Now should I praise Wales for the haka debacle?

Interestingly I got to sit right next to the Wales dugout, next to a player I didn't recognise (I think now it was Alun Wyn Jones - not that I am any the wiser!). James Hook looks a lot older than he actually is and Henson is a weird shade of orange!

Anyway, it was interesting to listen to how many fouls they thought the ABs were getting away with cos the ref couldn't see them - and slating their own players for missed tackles etc!

As for the Haka, it was the ABs decision not to do it - not Wales to stop them. Wales merely wanted to 'answer' them, as according to Maori tradition they have every right to do so...

Personally I was well pissed off as I had the perfect position to see it for the first time...

[finbar]

Nuh. The haka always comes last. Always has. It was varied last year - moved prior to the Welsh anthem - at the request of the Welsh RU as part of the celebration of the centenary of tests between the countries. It was specified then, and agreed by the Welsh, as a one-off. The WRU are a bunch of nancys.

[Havak]

Ah Mobius you don't understand - the only traditions that have to be respected in rugby are AB ones. Although the new tradition of England playing like primary school children is coming along quite nicely.

'Irelands Call' should be the last thing before every test - whatever countries are involved. It's my favouite tradition in rugby - and we must honour traditions you know.

I'm still torn between praising Wales for standing up to the bullying of the NZ Union about this and pointing out how badly it back fired on them to do so - talk about feeding the ABs motivation.

*edit* In mitigation of the Welsh I do feel they had grounds to be somewhat awkward after that stupid comment about 'Village idiots'. Are the NZ press becoming as arrogant as the UK press I wonder?

[finbar]

One journo, methinks. I liked G. Henry's response.

Havak, your sympathy for Taffys - even tongue-in-cheek - has been noted and will be held again you at a later date.

[Havak]

I plead insanity m'lud (under the pressure of the interminable wait for the RFU to announce turnips departure).

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by finbar
Nuh. The haka always comes last. Always has. It was varied last year - moved prior to the Welsh anthem - at the request of the Welsh RU as part of the celebration of the centenary of tests between the countries. It was specified then, and agreed by the Welsh, as a one-off. The WRU are a bunch of nancys.

Is that the Maori haka, or the ABs haka?

If the ABs are going to perform a haka, then they should uphold its traditions rather than co-opting it for their own goals. Once a haka is performed, a response is allowed – especially if the haka is performed on foreign territory.

'Valid response'
Professor Piri Sciascia, pro vice-chancellor Maori at Victoria University in Wellington, New Zealand, was consulted by the WRU over appropriate responses to the haka.

He said: "The advice that I was being asked about was around the validity as to whether or not the Welsh national anthem was a valid response.

"I said yes it was valid to respond and in fact whatever the way in which the Welsh people responded to the haka - that's up to them."

So I say again, is this the Maori haka, or the ABs haka?

Full Story

They (ABs) had six weeks to sort it out, but left it to the last second. Childish mindgames.

Just cos it is 'tradition' to have the last word as far as the ABs are concerned doesn't mean they should pervert a Maori tradition that in actuality the Welsh were trying to go along with by properly responding to it! When the ABs couldn't have it all to themselves, they threw their toys out of their pram.

Besides, they themselves have been 'messing about' with their own haka by changing the routine to the more intimidatory Kapa o Pango one.

Personally I think the haka is a wonderful spectacle, and would hate to see it lost to Rugby...

[Havak]

Oh lets be honest - both sides were trying mind games. And both sides handled the incident very poorly.

My own view is well known - the ABs have no god given right to have the last word after the hosts anthem - it is just a traditional courtesy. By behaving like petulant children it just brings a spotlight on that courtesy - and whether it should still be offered in future.

In my view the time to object was on or very soon after 16th October when they received the running order - and not six weeks later on the morning of the test. I do admire the WRU a little for not caving in to such blatant brinkmanship (there Finbar - I did it again!).

But don't worry - Ravagon will be along soon to explain how it is all actually Wales fault.

As for me I am still waiting for word of the departure. I have visions of the **** still sat in HQ explaining at length how we are 'moving forward'.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I do admire the WRU a little for not caving in to such blatant brinkmanship (there Finbar - I did it again!).

To back the Taffys once may be regarded as a misfortune; to back them twice looks like the drink talking. To paraphrase O. Wilde.

But don't worry - Ravagon will be along soon to explain how it is all actually Wales fault.

No, he'll be too busy still trying to fathom why he moved to Western Australia.

Professor Piri Sciascia, pro vice-chancellor Maori at Victoria University in Wellington, New Zealand

Turn it up, MOBIUS. You made that up. That's from the wondrous depths of your Celtic imagination.

Anyway. Wales 10; All Blacks 45.

Oh, and I found this:

Wales coach Gareth Jenkins has revealed he is looking to the help of a black belt to help defeat the All Blacks.

What? To tie Dan Carter's legs together?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Oh lets be honest - both sides were trying mind games. And both sides handled the incident very poorly.

My own view is well known - the ABs have no god given right to have the last word after the hosts anthem - it is just a traditional courtesy. By behaving like petulant children it just brings a spotlight on that courtesy - and whether it should still be offered in future.

Yep. Let the hosts decide.

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by Havak
Snapsnot criticisms from this game - his choice of locks let him down badly – Jones lacked the physicality to match the Boks and Palmer was just a walking Bok penalty as far as I could see. Also Sanderson is simply not an international – four poor games in a row must have marked his cards.over us). It doesn’t help that Robinson has picked an openside that simply isn’t up to the job (what does Lund need to do to get picked – he plays for the champions, San

Chris Jones was excellent and always has been for England...he is a great ball carrier, gets about the park, is a sure-fire thing in the lineout and makes tonnes of tackles. He also rarely gets pinged, unlike the usual suspects such as Grewcock.

Palmer also played well from what I saw and taking him off wasn't an improvement.


I'd like to see Magnus Lund being used as well as Tom Rees...Sanderson isn't a good choice as he plays poorly in the Internationals and is from a club that is forever losing, hardly the best club to then draw personnel from IMHO.

Can't wait for chaps like Forrester to be available to aid the pack, that said the pack isn't the main issue and does provide the backs a huge amount of ball and retain it.

The issue is that the backs are completely devoid of penetration and can only shovel **** along the line.