The final betrayal of Ukraine by the people of the United States of America

[Geronimo]

Quite. Western democracies are fine with authoritarian states, so long as they serve a purpose such as beating up Commies or holding the oil tap with a view to trade.

Playing with alignment to China would be playing with fire, but conceivable, for Europe if it were wanting to counterbalance a future hostile US.

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US? If Trump sells weapons to Russia and starts sharing classified secrets shared with the US from allies with Russia the betrayal will be much larger. How much larger really is Trump's betrayal than that of the PRC or Russia or Saudia Arabia or almost any authoritarian state we choose to look at? How quickly were those states boycotted? was it before the betrayal was even realized? Was Russia massively boycotted prior to the "special military operation"? how large was it compared to the current boycott against the US?

[Geronimo]

I have a freind who travaels a lot and he told me that russia/china have a whole digital "ecosystem" that spans ebverything the american oligarchs have and then some. it has every single thing. google maps, AI, social networking everything and is completely detached from the american companies.

I don't trust them but of course a complete ban of all american digital companies such as facebook etc should be on the table.

I think little trumpie is quickly realizing that he can't bullSh!t his way outside the borders of his country.

now basically russia and the US are on the same side. even if that's not complete, it is this way i n the mind of the average person and that counts way more than trumpie signing more sanctions against russia.


also trumpie is getting very quickly discredited for two reasons: he says things that he doesn't do (be that threats or promises)

he lies and it is very easy to see through his lies and is corrected by a lot of PMs.

the charade in the whiote house was very cringe worthy and screamed ineptitude from the team that leads the US. Also it was disgusting for a lot of people

Europe needs to be willing to wince and restrain themselves a little to be sure of preventing real Russia collusion with the US. Nobody in Europe seems to understand just how important that is. I'll never forgive Trump for provoking any of this, but I'll never forgive the boycotters and spite agitators for the derailing the damage control either.

[Dauphin]

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US? If Trump sells weapons to Russia and starts sharing classified secrets shared with the US from allies with Russia the betrayal will be much larger. How much larger really is Trump's betrayal than that of the PRC or Russia or Saudia Arabia or almost any authoritarian state we choose to look at? How quickly were those states boycotted? was it before the betrayal was even realized? Was Russia massively boycotted prior to the "special military operation"? how large was it compared to the current boycott against the US?

I don’t disagree with your logic. And if I were leading my country (as king or dictator for my country? lol) I would act to restore U.S. relations.

I am describing semi-rational behaviours. And so logic isn’t a predictor of what actors will do.

[Bereta_Eder]

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US?

the think is that the US is integrated in the post ww2 security architecture. it's like you're in a fortress and a guy next to you seems like he might shoot you. the damage is huge. if he was outside the fortress you wouldn't mind.

there are some tactical nukes in italy turkey I think belgium and holland that are US operated and army personel in germany etc etc

real european army expenditures (if you calculate inside purchaisng power, dont know how to say that in english) are on third place but most importantly there is no european central command, like NATO has. in order for a change in the security architecture you need a lot of things to happen. If trump just pulls the rug suddendly there is no time at all to do all of these with the most important being to harmonize the european armies and put them in a single command. that was never done before and we never really try to do it because there was always the US there.

Actually I predict trump trying to pressure europe next using some of these facts to turn us against ukraine or diminish the support

[Aeson]

Europe needs to be willing to wince and restrain themselves a little to be sure of preventing real Russia collusion with the US. Nobody in Europe seems to understand just how important that is. I'll never forgive Trump for provoking any of this, but I'll never forgive the boycotters and spite agitators for the derailing the damage control either.

Appease appease appease... just let Trump and his sycophants have their way. For how long? Where's your line when you'd grow a spine and stand up for those attacked?

Trump is already siding with Putin against Ukraine. He's already sicking his attack dog sycophants on Canada and Mexico, immigrants, disabled, government employees, trans.

You're blaming the victims for trying to stand up to the bully.

​​​​​

[Geronimo]

Appease appease appease... just let Trump and his sycophants have their way. For how long? Where's your line when you'd grow a spine and stand up for those attacked?

Trump is already siding with Putin against Ukraine. He's already sicking his attack dog sycophants on Canada and Mexico, immigrants, disabled, government employees, trans.

You're blaming the victims for trying to stand up to the bully.

​​​​​

Do you ever read what anybody says? I said deliver a unified ultimatum and deliver consequences for consequences. Involve as many countries as can be brought onboard. WTH did I say "appease" in any wording? What we have is a massive new global tariff policy sprung on everybody, allies and rivals and enemies alike, with little to no warning and a rhetoric treating Russia and Ukraine as if they were both jointly responsible for ending their conflict with no meaningful heads up to Ukraine's other allies or our allies even though we were the ally of Ukraine most heavily invested in helping them win the conflict by any measure.

Are you seriously arguing this is like me advocating we pressure Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudentenland? WTF?

[Aeson]

You're blaming those who are boycotting. You're telling them not to boycott. The boycotts are good. It's the only vote the common people really have that the wealthy will care about..

[Aeson]

It's all about the money. Trump is backed by billionaires and giant corporations who are looking for deregulation, tax breaks, corporate welfare, and privatization. These backers own a huge % of the wealth in the US. The only way to fight back is to stop buying their ****. Which is virtually everything you'll find "made in the USA" overseas.

[giblets]

I wonder if the idiot realizes that once Europe has again it's own military, our leaders might find their balls back and start steering their own course. The orange one might not like this.
In the mean time : **** you too. Kick X, facebook and amazon out of the unified market. Hit his little friends where it hurts.

Nope, Trump's orbiters think you're too weak and effeminate to field an army.

[dannubis]

So long as you don't replace them with products from other authoritarian states. Keep your eye on the ball.

Now that would be really ****ty for the US no ?
A real-politic EU that has more economic ties to China than to the US.

Loyalty is something that works both ways.

[Provost Harrison]

Europe needs to be willing to wince and restrain themselves a little to be sure of preventing real Russia collusion with the US. Nobody in Europe seems to understand just how important that is. I'll never forgive Trump for provoking any of this, but I'll never forgive the boycotters and spite agitators for the derailing the damage control either.

I know it's awful but the rest of the world also sees where this is heading. And we can't just hope for you somehow deposing this government and returning to normality. Even if the next elections happen (I wouldn't be so sure at this point, or if they are, they'll be a publicity stunt and whitewashed, to give a veneer of validity to the current regime). See, at the moment, despite all the talk, Russia is depleted. Not gone, it will take them time to rearm. But we can continue the pressure there which means we need to apply the pressure to affect instability in the US to, hopefully, precipitate regime change, and if not, at least greatly diminish your power both economically and militarily. At this point you may or may not view it as a kindness but either way, containment is necessary. I know you never expected to be sat at the other end of these words, but there it is.

[Provost Harrison]

Now that would be really ****ty for the US no ?
A real-politic EU that has more economic ties to China than to the US.

Loyalty is something that works both ways.

Truth is at the moment, regardless of how distasteful the Chinese regime seems to us, they are consistent, they haven't recently performed an act of high treachery. I'm not saying we embrace them with open arms but there is opportunity there for cooperation. This is not true of the US, the betrayal has seen to that and even if normality is restored there, it seems to be very fragile. I'd say that in recent years the US has been a plutocracy with an administration barely exerting control over their system. The result of a failure to regulate. I wish people would see that, you don't regulate capitalism to within an inch of its life, you listen to the concerns of the capitalist class at the sacrifice of all else and this will happen. Tell me, why is this monetarist, nay, libertarian economic philosophy still constantly cropping up despite it being an abject failure everywhere it is tried? It is a cult which serves the super rich well and no one else.

US forgot the golden rule - a mixed economy is essential with checks and balances. Not just constitutionally because ways are found around those but in terms of control of the corporate, that not everything can be sacrificed for profit. The very grassroots of such issues needed to be opposed going back decades. And the worst part is - the issues this causes - inequality - have resulted in discontent which has been exploited by the very forces that have created it so you have this runaway effect we are seeing now.

Lessons need to be learned and codified. I'm hoping it is not too late for the US but we all...every single one of us...needs to learn the lessons. Disillusioning a significant part of the population is not an option.

[Geronimo]

Now that would be really ****ty for the US no ?
A real-politic EU that has more economic ties to China than to the US.

Loyalty is something that works both ways.

With presidents like Trump it wouldn't matter really. The US will be inconvenienced by a PRC hegemony. It will be far for more serious for several years at least for Europe.

Trump's not trying to be "leader of the free world". That's just empty rhetoric to him. Without the burden of keeping the authoritarian states in check or doing anything at all beyond securing borders the rest of the world can largely go to hell and while there will be serious economic consequences there's no reason to suppose it will be lighter for Europe.

If the plan is to fix the betrayal by pivoting to the enemies of the US the plan will fail.

And again the magnitude of the US crimes to Europe remain tiny compared to those of the enemies you pivot to, especially PRC.

The betrayal to date? An incredibly stupid global tariff policy to try to offset trade deficits using tariffs on short notice to friends, rivals and 'enemies'. And an appalling line of rhetoric that treats Ukraine and Russia as if they share equal responsibility for ending Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

<added a bunch of text to try to avoid losing the post to green limbo for getting rid of a single annoying extra typed character>

[Geronimo]

I know it's awful but the rest of the world also sees where this is heading. And we can't just hope for you somehow deposing this government and returning to normality. Even if the next elections happen (I wouldn't be so sure at this point, or if they are, they'll be a publicity stunt and whitewashed, to give a veneer of validity to the current regime). See, at the moment, despite all the talk, Russia is depleted. Not gone, it will take them time to rearm. But we can continue the pressure there which means we need to apply the pressure to affect instability in the US to, hopefully, precipitate regime change, and if not, at least greatly diminish your power both economically and militarily. At this point you may or may not view it as a kindness but either way, containment is necessary. I know you never expected to be sat at the other end of these words, but there it is.

But what have they actually done to Europe to date? What have they threatened to do?

[Geronimo]

Truth is at the moment, regardless of how distasteful the Chinese regime seems to us, they are consistent, they haven't recently performed an act of high treachery. I'm not saying we embrace them with open arms but there is opportunity there for cooperation. This is not true of the US, the betrayal has seen to that and even if normality is restored there, it seems to be very fragile. I'd say that in recent years the US has been a plutocracy with an administration barely exerting control over their system. The result of a failure to regulate. I wish people would see that, you don't regulate capitalism to within an inch of its life, you listen to the concerns of the capitalist class at the sacrifice of all else and this will happen. Tell me, why is this monetarist, nay, libertarian economic philosophy still constantly cropping up despite it being an abject failure everywhere it is tried? It is a cult which serves the super rich well and no one else.

US forgot the golden rule - a mixed economy is essential with checks and balances. Not just constitutionally because ways are found around those but in terms of control of the corporate, that not everything can be sacrificed for profit. The very grassroots of such issues needed to be opposed going back decades. And the worst part is - the issues this causes - inequality - have resulted in discontent which has been exploited by the very forces that have created it so you have this runaway effect we are seeing now.

Lessons need to be learned and codified. I'm hoping it is not too late for the US but we all...every single one of us...needs to learn the lessons. Disillusioning a significant part of the population is not an option.

The PRC consistently engage in massive industrial espionage against European countries. They suppress far more European trade in the prc than trump will ever suppress with his tariffs through extremely inconsistent and often barely directly and individually detectable but large scale state sponsored fraud.

The reason you want to pretend the US under trump is worse is because the US under Trump surprised you. Keep your eye on the ball. Consequences.

​​​​​​The Ukrainian betrayal is sickening but I guarantee Trump has no desire to spend one red cent to harm Ukraine's interests. The US has given well over a hundred billion in direct grants and military hardware to Ukraine. To start massive boycotts against them now for Trump's betrayals to date is a massive act of hypocrisy and a much worse act of betrayal and at least as self destructive in consequences.