The final betrayal of Ukraine by the people of the United States of America

[Geronimo]

Quite. Western democracies are fine with authoritarian states, so long as they serve a purpose such as beating up Commies or holding the oil tap with a view to trade.

Playing with alignment to China would be playing with fire, but conceivable, for Europe if it were wanting to counterbalance a future hostile US.

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US? If Trump sells weapons to Russia and starts sharing classified secrets shared with the US from allies with Russia the betrayal will be much larger. How much larger really is Trump's betrayal than that of the PRC or Russia or Saudia Arabia or almost any authoritarian state we choose to look at? How quickly were those states boycotted? was it before the betrayal was even realized? Was Russia massively boycotted prior to the "special military operation"? how large was it compared to the current boycott against the US?

[Geronimo]

I have a freind who travaels a lot and he told me that russia/china have a whole digital "ecosystem" that spans ebverything the american oligarchs have and then some. it has every single thing. google maps, AI, social networking everything and is completely detached from the american companies.

I don't trust them but of course a complete ban of all american digital companies such as facebook etc should be on the table.

I think little trumpie is quickly realizing that he can't bullSh!t his way outside the borders of his country.

now basically russia and the US are on the same side. even if that's not complete, it is this way i n the mind of the average person and that counts way more than trumpie signing more sanctions against russia.


also trumpie is getting very quickly discredited for two reasons: he says things that he doesn't do (be that threats or promises)

he lies and it is very easy to see through his lies and is corrected by a lot of PMs.

the charade in the whiote house was very cringe worthy and screamed ineptitude from the team that leads the US. Also it was disgusting for a lot of people

Europe needs to be willing to wince and restrain themselves a little to be sure of preventing real Russia collusion with the US. Nobody in Europe seems to understand just how important that is. I'll never forgive Trump for provoking any of this, but I'll never forgive the boycotters and spite agitators for the derailing the damage control either.

[Dauphin]

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US? If Trump sells weapons to Russia and starts sharing classified secrets shared with the US from allies with Russia the betrayal will be much larger. How much larger really is Trump's betrayal than that of the PRC or Russia or Saudia Arabia or almost any authoritarian state we choose to look at? How quickly were those states boycotted? was it before the betrayal was even realized? Was Russia massively boycotted prior to the "special military operation"? how large was it compared to the current boycott against the US?

I don’t disagree with your logic. And if I were leading my country (as king or dictator for my country? lol) I would act to restore U.S. relations.

I am describing semi-rational behaviours. And so logic isn’t a predictor of what actors will do.

[Bereta_Eder]

And do those authoritarian states not have a long record of betrayals at least as massive as Trump suddenly announcing intents to tariff every country that enjoys a trade surplus vs the US?

the think is that the US is integrated in the post ww2 security architecture. it's like you're in a fortress and a guy next to you seems like he might shoot you. the damage is huge. if he was outside the fortress you wouldn't mind.

there are some tactical nukes in italy turkey I think belgium and holland that are US operated and army personel in germany etc etc

real european army expenditures (if you calculate inside purchaisng power, dont know how to say that in english) are on third place but most importantly there is no european central command, like NATO has. in order for a change in the security architecture you need a lot of things to happen. If trump just pulls the rug suddendly there is no time at all to do all of these with the most important being to harmonize the european armies and put them in a single command. that was never done before and we never really try to do it because there was always the US there.

Actually I predict trump trying to pressure europe next using some of these facts to turn us against ukraine or diminish the support

[Aeson]

Europe needs to be willing to wince and restrain themselves a little to be sure of preventing real Russia collusion with the US. Nobody in Europe seems to understand just how important that is. I'll never forgive Trump for provoking any of this, but I'll never forgive the boycotters and spite agitators for the derailing the damage control either.

Appease appease appease... just let Trump and his sycophants have their way. For how long? Where's your line when you'd grow a spine and stand up for those attacked?

Trump is already siding with Putin against Ukraine. He's already sicking his attack dog sycophants on Canada and Mexico, immigrants, disabled, government employees, trans.

You're blaming the victims for trying to stand up to the bully.

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[Geronimo]

Appease appease appease... just let Trump and his sycophants have their way. For how long? Where's your line when you'd grow a spine and stand up for those attacked?

Trump is already siding with Putin against Ukraine. He's already sicking his attack dog sycophants on Canada and Mexico, immigrants, disabled, government employees, trans.

You're blaming the victims for trying to stand up to the bully.

​​​​​

Do you ever read what anybody says? I said deliver a unified ultimatum and deliver consequences for consequences. Involve as many countries as can be brought onboard. WTH did I say "appease" in any wording? What we have is a massive new global tariff policy sprung on everybody, allies and rivals and enemies alike, with little to no warning and a rhetoric treating Russia and Ukraine as if they were both jointly responsible for ending their conflict with no meaningful heads up to Ukraine's other allies or our allies even though we were the ally of Ukraine most heavily invested in helping them win the conflict by any measure.

Are you seriously arguing this is like me advocating we pressure Czechoslovakia to surrender the Sudentenland? WTF?

[Aeson]

You're blaming those who are boycotting. You're telling them not to boycott. The boycotts are good. It's the only vote the common people really have that the wealthy will care about..

[Aeson]

It's all about the money. Trump is backed by billionaires and giant corporations who are looking for deregulation, tax breaks, corporate welfare, and privatization. These backers own a huge % of the wealth in the US. The only way to fight back is to stop buying their ****. Which is virtually everything you'll find "made in the USA" overseas.

[giblets]

I wonder if the idiot realizes that once Europe has again it's own military, our leaders might find their balls back and start steering their own course. The orange one might not like this.
In the mean time : **** you too. Kick X, facebook and amazon out of the unified market. Hit his little friends where it hurts.

Nope, Trump's orbiters think you're too weak and effeminate to field an army.

[dannubis]

So long as you don't replace them with products from other authoritarian states. Keep your eye on the ball.

Now that would be really ****ty for the US no ?
A real-politic EU that has more economic ties to China than to the US.

Loyalty is something that works both ways.