Do we really need Gender?

[Geronimo]

I really don't understand why we talk about "gender assigned at birth". Was there anything indelible about the "assignment" and isn't gender just a cultural construct anyway? Shouldn't all physiological sex related differences fall under the umbrella categories of male, female or intersex? If someone is experiencing gender dysphoria from lack of agreement between a gender they personally identify with and some other gender that others want to ascribe to that person why would the mutilations of surgical modifications of their healthy bodies be characterized as "gender affirming treatment"? We don't perform surgery on genders. Genders and sex are totally different. Gender is a role and sex is a spectrum of biological and physiological differences that comprise sexual differentiation in a species. If you want to affirm a gender surgery isn't going to cut it (see what I did there?).

For the most part gender seems totally unnecessary on both an individual and species level. What do we need gender for anyway? If gender dysphoria is traumatic why not just do away with gender as a society before we advocate for surgeries intended to make the patient's body more closely resemble the kind of sexual physiology more typically associated with their chosen gender?

[Lorizael]

Essentially every society in history disagrees with you and thinks gender serves an important function. And no, I don't mean sex. Throughout history, acting not in accordance with the gender role associated with your biological sex has resulted in ostracism or punishment, or in a few lucky cases exoticization or fetishization. So take it up with ~history~ and those who cling to it if you want to do away with gender.

I'm with you that it's a stupid concept we'd be better off not having, but identities are important to us and we can very rarely decide to just not have one. We need alternatives if the ones available to us don't seem to cut it. At present, a lot of people are terrified of identities that don't fit their narrow worldview. But "maybe I'm a dude and not a chick" is the tip of the iceberg in terms of weird ways to think about oneself, so let's get everyone on board with that at least before we go any further.

And in the meantime, whatever you want to call the procedure, the evidence seems to suggest that surgical alteration provides a lot of people with a lot of psychological relief. Why should we deny that to them?

[Geronimo]

FWIW I don't want any elective treatments denied to anyone. That said I think every time someone resorts to body modifications as part of their relief for their gender dysphoria then at that point society has failed that individual. They should have felt free to live how ever they choose without making their body match expectations for their gender role.

[giblets]

There seems to be an assumption that transgender people conform to stereotypes associated with their gender identity.

[Lorizael]

They don't and don't have to, but if there's literally nothing more to being a man or woman than having the thought, "I am a man/woman," then that's even more evidence it's a stupid concept.

[Jon Miller]

Some of the people I know who put the most effort into matching gender stereotypes are trans.

I think we should be less gender-focused and let people be. Maybe that would result in fewer people feeling dysmorphia (it seems that many of the people who feel dysmorphia feel like only the most exact match to their gender stereotypes is acceptable).

I have seen that girls and boys do seem to behave differently, even if you are actively trying to raise them outside of many of the gender stereotypes.

JM
(I must say that I view the modern trans movement suspiciously; I think they are too tied to 20th-century Western gender norms and too intolerant.)

[Jon Miller]

Note that because of my age, I mostly interact with 40(+) year-old transpeople. I have read online that the experience and demographics have massively changed, and surveys seem to agree. For people my age and older, there are not a lot of transpeople and most are MtF. Apparently among the younger crowd being trans is 5x as common and they are mostly FtM.

JM

[pchang]

Gender is a construct, but for much of the world, it is an inherent part of their language which has a strong affect on the very way they think.

[N35t0r]

Gender is a construct, but for much of the world, it is an inherent part of their language which has a strong affect on the very way they think.

Gender is a construct in the same way that family is a construct (and nation, and religion, and...)

[pchang]

Yes. I concur. And now my response is longer than 10 characters.

[Jon Miller]

I think there is an advantage to having gender, although some of the stereotypes and rigidity are harmful. I also think there is a 'realness' to it (and I think that sex has real impact).

JM

[Dauphin]

Gender is a construct, but for much of the world, it is an inherent part of their language which has a strong affect on the very way they think.

French 'le vagin'. Why is it masculine? Or 'la moustache', why is it feminine? There are others, but I digress....

[pchang]

Have you seen the mustaches on some women? And let’s not mention the patriarchy inherent in implying the vagina is controlled by men…..

[Dauphin]

They should have felt free to live how ever they choose without making their body match expectations for their gender role.

I don't have any knowledge of this subject so an open question - are they doing it to match societal expectation, or what they themselves feel their body should be? Granted, the latter may stem from the former, but not necessarily.

[Geronimo]

I don't have any knowledge of this subject so an open question - are they doing it to match societal expectation, or what they themselves feel their body should be? Granted, the latter may stem from the former, but not necessarily.

Honestly I don't know. It doesn't seem to make sense either way. I get not wanting to conform to a role. I get having strong preferences with respect to one's sexual traits and physiology. I don't get why someone who is unhappy with their gender would address that by arranging for alterations to be made to their physical sexual traits. It seems to me that surgery, medicine and body modification should have nothing whatsoever to do with gender. If people want to change those things it should be to change sexual traits not gender ones.

[Lorizael]

Read accounts of gender dysphoria. It very often manifests in profound discomfort or disgust with one's body.

[Geronimo]

Read accounts of gender dysphoria. It very often manifests in profound discomfort or disgust with one's body.

shouldn't we call it sexual dysphoria then? Where is the involvement of gender?