Do we really need Gender?

[Dauphin]

Sounds like semantics to me. There is gender (sense of self / how you 'identify') and sex (the physical / objective anatomy). The dysphoria is that the two don't align.

[Dauphin]

A semantic problem is that pronouns and nouns for gender concepts are seen as the same as for sex, when they are not. Leading to 'she's a man', and 'a woman can't have a penis'. If they had different lexicons that were understood, things may be easier. Leading back to culture and language comments above.

[Geronimo]

A semantic problem is that pronouns and nouns for gender concepts are seen as the same as for sex, when they are not. Leading to 'she's a man', and 'a woman can't have a penis'. If they had different lexicons that were understood, things may be easier. Leading back to culture and language comments above.

So we don't in fact need gender right? Why are we identifying at all? When we identify what are we communicating? Pronouns? When would those ever matter? If I say I identify as a woman what is different about what you know about me vs if I say I identify as a man or vs if I say I identify as a non gendered human?

[Dauphin]

Sure. If you are willing to say we don't need to pigeon-hole things into other sociological concepts based around a generalised set of related data points. Things like nationality, ethnicity, age, religious beliefs etc. or wealth, education. Why does anyone identify with particular groups based on those factors....

[Geronimo]

Sure. If you are willing to say we don't need to pigeon-hole things into other sociological concepts based around a generalised set of related data points. Things like nationality, ethnicity, age, religious beliefs etc. or wealth, education. Why does anyone identify with particular groups based on those factors....

Those all either communicate some practical information like wealth, education, age or even religious beliefs or are already widely recognized as totally superfluous.

With respect to ethnicity/nationality even though I would prefer to disregard those as superfluous I do note that they are regarded as falsifiable to some extent and are challenged. This at least makes them subject to debate. Is anything other than gender totally unfalsifiable and intrinsically not subject to debate? Even personal tastes are subject to examination via behavior patterns. Gender seems to uniquely be capable of causing serious personal trauma while conveying absolutely no information apart from the label itself. How is this not a concept we should work to abandon?

[N35t0r]

Those all either communicate some practical information like wealth, education, age or even religious beliefs or are already widely recognized as totally superfluous.

With respect to ethnicity/nationality even though I would prefer to disregard those as superfluous I do note that they are regarded as falsifiable to some extent and are challenged. This at least makes them subject to debate. Is anything other than gender totally unfalsifiable and intrinsically not subject to debate? Even personal tastes are subject to examination via behavior patterns. Gender seems to uniquely be capable of causing serious personal trauma while conveying absolutely no information apart from the label itself. How is this not a concept we should work to abandon?

We haven't managed to abandon religion, something that is totally made up and has no grounding in reality, and you want to drop gender?

[Geronimo]

We haven't managed to abandon religion, something that is totally made up and has no grounding in reality, and you want to drop gender?

Absolutely. How is gender more grounded in reality than religion? What fraction of modern charitable contributions are in association with religion? Religion can do astonishing good in addition to the appalling horrors that non believers focus on, especially in the modern era. It is clearly reformable if not overtly good overall. Religion is really just philosophy and ethics plus faith. Identifiable enormously good things would be suppressed along with suppression of religion. What does gender offer? Gender dysphoria and what else?

[Dauphin]

Is anything other than gender totally unfalsifiable and intrinsically not subject to debate? Gender seems to uniquely be capable of causing serious personal trauma while conveying absolutely no information apart from the label itself. How is this not a concept we should work to abandon?

Your preferred name.

[Geronimo]

Your preferred name.

anyone who has ever changed their name would beg to differ. it has a very large web of consequence and is certainly subject to debate, especially when changed to conceal identity. A name is a functional identifier to disambiguate us from one another. This can even make it subject to debate when disputing identity. What is the functional value of gender? what does it serve to indicate beyond the label itself which otherwise determines nothing whatsoever. not identity. nothing really.

[N35t0r]

Absolutely. How is gender more grounded in reality than religion? What fraction of modern charitable contributions are in association with religion? Religion can do astonishing good in addition to the appalling horrors that non believers focus on, especially in the modern era. It is clearly reformable if not overtly good overall. Religion is really just philosophy and ethics plus faith. Identifiable enormously good things would be suppressed along with suppression of religion. What does gender offer? Gender dysphoria and what else?

None of the good things you mention actually require religion.

[Dauphin]

anyone who has ever changed their name would beg to differ. it has a very large web of consequence and is certainly subject to debate, especially when changed to conceal identity. A name is a functional identifier to disambiguate us from one another. This can even make it subject to debate when disputing identity. What is the functional value of gender? what does it serve to indicate beyond the label itself which otherwise determines nothing whatsoever. not identity. nothing really.

I'm not talking about changing your legal name. I am talking about what people call you. Like Rob instead of Robert.. I know people who go by their middle name, a shorthand of their first name or a completely unrelated nickname.

[Dauphin]

It's a way that you want to be addressed, regardless of your legal identifier. It is to gender what sex is to a legal name.

Edit - also, a lot of people use Westernised names for their day to day interactions, but their legal name is non-Western. It makes life easier.

[Geronimo]

None of the good things you mention actually require religion.

Not relevant. Does something only have value when it is the exclusive means to something else?

Also what's your point? I asserted that religion can make itself worthwhile. What good things can come from gender? You objected to ditching gender because religion is made up with no basis in reality. I responded that religion has value whether or not it is "grounded in reality". In fact while I recognize gender as purely harmful I've never asserted that not being grounded in reality was the problem with it. Gender dysphoria is the problem with it

[Geronimo]

It's a way that you want to be addressed, regardless of your legal identifier. It is to gender what sex is to a legal name.

Edit - also, a lot of people use Westernised names for their day to day interactions, but their legal name is non-Western. It makes life easier.

At least your proposal would assert some kind of functionality for gender. The problem is that while a nickname has a real relationship with your legal name in that it points to the same thing that is certainly not the case for gender to sex.

[N35t0r]

Not relevant. Does something only have value when it is the exclusive means to something else?

Also what's your point? I asserted that religion can make itself worthwhile. What good things can come from gender? You objected to ditching gender because religion is made up with no basis in reality. I responded that religion has value whether or not it is "grounded in reality". In fact while I recognize gender as purely harmful I've never asserted that not being grounded in reality was the problem with it. Gender dysphoria is the problem with it

Any women's or men's groups that have had positive impact on its members are argument enough that if organized religion has any value at all, then gender also has.