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  • #46
    I don't think I have said it in this thread, but I think that the way to stop abortions is to stop people from wanting abortions. We saw pre-Row that banning abortion didn't really stop it, the central problem is people wanting it.

    And I think the central reason why people want abortions is isn't that 'people are selfish' or 'young people are selfish' or 'liberals are selfish'. I think the central reason why people want abortions is because the US (as a whole) is just so anti-child and parent unfriendly. We need pre/post-natal care. We need free childbirths. We need parental leave (for both mothers and fathers). Raising children is a huge cost and, when done right, a huge benefit for society, but we force the burdens all on parents and we structure society to do this.

    Here is a report (I didn't read this one, but I think I read an article that is about the same study) showing that children cause unhappiness in the US and that this is primarily because of how we structure society to put all the burden on parents (this isn't seen in other countries as much).

    https://sites.utexas.edu/contemporar...ing-happiness/

    The bad news is that of the 22 countries we studied, the U.S. has the largest happiness shortfall among parents compared to nonparents, significantly larger than the gap found in Great Britain and Australia.

    What we found was astonishing. The negative effects of parenthood on happiness were entirely explained by the presence or absence of social policies allowing parents to better combine paid work with family obligations. And this was true for both mothers and fathers. Countries with better family policy “packages” had no happiness gap between parents and non-parents.

    JM
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post
      What do you think will happen if Trump or someone similar wins in 2024?

      JM
      Trump would probably cheerfully push for a national ban but congress would have to be remarkably red to actually get it through. The big unknown factor is how public opinion will change over the next two years when horrible coathanger stories fail to emerge in significant numbers and life mostly goes on as it has. My general belief is that moderate Americans are pro-choice-ish in the sense that the whole subject squicks them out and they want to engage with it as little as possible so they pick the middle ground between extremes (some restrictions, abort all you want before some point in the first trimester). That's how we've gotten this far; a lot of people will say they want choice everywhere but it's like their eighteenth priority while the pro-life side has remained driven and the pro-choice side, when it wasn't complacent, simply couldn't get any traction raising the specter of Roe dying and expecting people to stay alarmed.

      By this framework of "yeah, I'm pro-choice, I guess, god please change the subject," some abortion restrictions could come into play on the national scale. Interstate travel bans as such would be ludicrously hard to enforce even if the courts decided they were okay, which I don't foresee. I could see a law penalizing any clinic which performs an abortion on a woman who has not resided in the state for X amount of time (say, if she doesn't have a state ID). Moderates might tolerate that as a way to make the controversy go away, but that's a big question mark. Restricting the flow of pills would be more difficult but still possible by making them afraid of legal liability. I don't know what would happen once the pill traffic went underground. Might be able to spoof the market some with sugar pills, but putting hurdles in place would be hard.

      I don't believe in the bugbear of hunting down women who've had miscarriages; shortly after the leak a letter signed by every major pro-life organization and branches from every state was circulated to the effect that the pro-life movement opposes prosecuting women. I don't see it happening on scale for a protracted period. What comes next will likely be war against the middlemen.
      1011 1100
      Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

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      • Elok
        Elok commented
        Editing a comment
        Now that I think of it, state ID restrictions would be difficult because of girls under 16.

    • #48
      There is the Malta example of a US couple who had a miscarriage being in trouble due to their abortion laws.

      A pregnant woman who suffered an incomplete miscarriage while visiting Malta was not able to get an abortion due to the Maltese law. She will be airlifted to Spain.


      JM
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • Elok
        Elok commented
        Editing a comment
        Can't speak for the Maltese pro-life movement, natch.

    • #49
      Originally posted by Elok View Post
      The big unknown factor is how public opinion will change over the next two years when horrible coathanger stories fail to emerge in significant numbers and life mostly goes on as it has.
      How much will the conversation become confused due to the fact that most Americans live in blue states or blue cities while the change will be mostly in red states or rural areas?

      JM
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • #50
        Originally posted by Jon Miller View Post

        How much will the conversation become confused due to the fact that most Americans live in blue states or blue cities while the change will be mostly in red states or rural areas?

        JM
        Well, the red states will continue to have disproportionate power thanks to the distribution of senators, the Electoral College, etc. That is another factor in our favor. Also, barring a nationwide abortion ban it will quickly become obvious that access in New York and Hawaii is going nowhere, so the energetically pro-choice in blue areas will have to summon up vicarious outrage. Tough sell.
        1011 1100
        Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

        Comment


        • #51
          I have female friends in Texas, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Arizona, and Idaho who are either about to lose or may well soon lose their bodily autonomy, so it shouldn't be hard to come up with vicarious outrage. And I'm an asocial loner who doesn't talk to people.
          Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
          "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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          • #52
            EDIT: on second thought, you sound pretty angry, so we might do better to leave this conversation off for a couple of days at least. I do sound pretty bloodless, which is easy for me to do because we just won.
            Last edited by Elok; June 25, 2022, 15:34.
            1011 1100
            Pyrebound--a free online serial fantasy novel

            Comment


            • #53
              Originally posted by Lorizael View Post
              I have female friends in Texas, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Arizona, and Idaho who are either about to lose or may well soon lose their bodily autonomy, so it shouldn't be hard to come up with vicarious outrage. And I'm an asocial loner who doesn't talk to people.
              Pennsylvania, Arizona and North Carolina are purple. Texas could become purple. How your friends respond and how you support them is important to how the US responds to this.

              JM
              Jon Miller-
              I AM.CANADIAN
              GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

              Comment


              • #54
                Hey guise it's me again. I just want to say that I want both Ben Kenobi and Kidicious to come back and start poasting again. Also I still think that Trillion is EyesofNight but something happened to him, he mellowed out a bit.
                The Wizard of AAHZ

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                • #55
                  You cannot ban abortion. You can ban safe medical procedures.
                  There's nothing wrong with the dream, my friend, the problem lies with the dreamer.

                  Comment


                  • Uncle Sparky
                    Uncle Sparky commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Then you are not in favour of banning safe abortions. Good.

                  • Elok
                    Elok commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Of course I want abortion banned. It's just that the Dobbs ruling by itself will do little to restrict abortion access, and fears that it will lead to lots of perforated uteruses are simply out of touch.

                  • Uncle Sparky
                    Uncle Sparky commented
                    Editing a comment
                    So for the time being you think all women will still be able to get safe therapeutic abortions. Good.

                • #56
                  Originally posted by Elok View Post
                  4. This doesn't do a whole lot to change the status quo; the states which will make this illegal are states that already made it nearly impossible to run an abortion clinic efficiently. These states will go from one or two clinics each to zero, and women will have to drive a little farther to snuff their kids in utero.
                  Yeah, I'm sure anti-choicers will be satisfied with a status quo where people who can afford to travel to another state still get abortions and they will stop their crusade.

                  Comment


                  • Elok
                    Elok commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I didn't say we were stopping here. But the verdict, by itself, will do very little.

                • #57
                  can states make women get abortions?

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                  • #58
                    Don't know about abortions, but pretty sure forced sterilization of certain persons is a thing.
                    One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

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                    • #59
                      Last edited by My Wife Hates CIV; July 4, 2022, 00:37.

                      Comment


                      • #60
                        Hey Ben
                        "Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
                        "I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi

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