Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Berzerker]

Why do you keep using analogies instead of events in Ukraine?

[Stantroll]

Had the Russkies just dropped a cluster bomb around here during a meal pause ca. 1996-1999, I'd have been OK with that...

[Broken_Erika]

Plus, Stalin's policies were a continuation of Russia's historical policies of Russification.

[Dinner]

Well worth reading including the parts about 93% of Ukraine voting for independence from the USSR including the"Russia" ethnic areas of Ukraine including Donbas, Crimea, and Kharkov. BTW all of those "ethic Russian areas" are directly the result of Stalin's ethnic cleansing policies and deliberate ethnic colonization and Imperialism.

https://youtu.be/94bqk8cB9iQ

[PLATO]

Wayback machine from December 2013 shows more people supported than opposed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131213064315/http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8840/

Almost a half of Ukrainians (49%) support the Euromaydan in Kiev, at the same time almost the equal number of respondents (45%) have the opposite opinion.

Seems support fluctuated but was generally 50:50 with a margin of error.

This is the correct interpretation of the data. To say that the population opposed maiden would be inaccurate. In fact, the trend post maiden shows that many were probably in support but simply feared change. Once change to a more free society began to happen, these fears fell away and support grew. It is really quite simple. Berz is undoubtedly misinterpreting the data and using that misinterpretation to further a conspiracy theory that has been, if by nothing else, completely debunked by subsequent elections.

[Geronimo]

Only a third of British American colonists supported independence. The Boston massacre was clearly a French neocon coup operation to create a puppet state and spark a proxy war against the hated British empire. Americans knew all along who was really behind the "Revolution".

[Dauphin]

Wayback machine from December 2013 shows more people supported than opposed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20131213064315/http://rb.com.ua/eng/projects/omnibus/8840/

Almost a half of Ukrainians (49%) support the Euromaydan in Kiev, at the same time almost the equal number of respondents (45%) have the opposite opinion.

Seems support fluctuated but was generally 50:50 with a margin of error.

[Berzerker]

your link says a majority didn't support Maidan, opinion shifted after the massacre they blamed on the leader and Russia

[PLATO]

57% strongly supported or rather supported Maiden in March 2014:




Euromaiden Wikipedia entry...reference 161

[Dinner]

What happened to poly? Also it still won't let me post a thread.

[Berzerker]

The article I linked said the majority didn't support Maidan. If you have polling showing otherwise then link it for us.

[PLATO]

Maidan didn't have majority support

Since your opening words are so clearly wrong, the rest of your post is nonsensical.

However, if you would like to persist in the fallacy of thinking that people would rather live under oppressive authoritarianism that is directed from a foreign country INSTEAD of being free to determine their own fate, then you are free to do so.

It is quite clear from all evidence, both before the ouster of the wannabe dictator (evidenced by many protests) and after (evidenced by elections), that Ukraine wanted to be free of Russian influence.

But good on ya for continuing to believe the twisted lies of Putin's propaganda machine.

[Berzerker]

Maidan didn't have majority support and we dont coup governments for that, we coup governments that do what the majority wants. Ofc Russia was bribing Ukraine, so was the west. Both sides were tugging and Putin won that day so we backed a coup and armed an assault on Ukrainians who didn't bend the knee. Every government responds with force when they're attacked, the Maidan massacre came from right wing protesters.

The people of Ukraine voted for peace and that was without millions of voters affected by the war. Why not let the Donbas decide their fate? Cant... the west already knew they were party poopers before the coup and we needed their resistance for our proxy war anyway.

"What was meant to be a revolution for democracy and liberal values ended up featuring ultranationalist chants from the 1930s and prominent displays of fascist and white supremacist symbols, including the American Confederate flag."

https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-p...ia-nato-crimea

oh the irony... back to the liberal hypocrisy thread?

"The day after the deal was signed, Parliament ratified what was effectively an insurrection, voting to strip the presidency from Yanukovych, to the praise of the US ambassador."

Good 'ole democracy

"Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy met with Svoboda’s fascist leader, standing shoulder to shoulder with him as they announced their support to the protesters, while US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland handed out sandwiches to them. To understand the provocative nature of such moves, you only need to remember the establishment outrage over the mere idea Moscow had used troll farms to voice support for Black Lives Matter protests."

Russian troll farms supported the Democrats? And there's Victoria again handing out food, so sweet to see her motherliness kick in when there's blood to be spilled.

"It’s an overstatement to say, as some critics have charged, that Washington orchestrated the Maidan uprising. But there’s no doubt US officials backed and exploited it for their own ends."

But democracy... oppression...

[Jon Miller]

I have been seeing a lot of anti-supporting Ukraine pieces like https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ations/673293/. in serious magazines (like the Atlantic) recently.

It seems to me to clearly biased ('if you fight back, then you will have more atrocities committed against you, so better not fight back...' ), but I am wondering if I am missing something.

JM

[PLATO]

Leading up to 2014, Ukraine was undeniably starting to lean West. The President of Ukraine decided that he would rather be Russia's puppet and buy into their oligarch corruption scheme for himself. The people, having their will being thwarted arose to protest. The President decided to respond with force. It matters not if the U.S. helped the people of Ukraine respond to this oppression or not. The people were responding on their own. The President decided to de facto abdicate his position by fleeing to his master's protection. The parliament responded constitutionally (as Dinner has indicated above).

The simple truth is that the Russians were trying to take over a sovereign country thru subverting its leadership. When this failed, they started a military escalation that we see culminating now. The people of Ukraine wanted to be free and not Russia's puppets. How does it even matter if we helped them with that or not? The will of the people has been further expressed in several elections since then.

Berz...what you spout is nothing but conspiracy theory that, even if true, is not relevant to what the people of Ukraine wanted...and will hopefully achieve. A free and independent country that embraces Western values. How could anyone support something different unless you truly love oppression?