Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Ming]

That was a protest turned riot with a couple hundred govt assets in attendance. If it was a coup they would have brought guns and used them, not roam the halls of the capital taking selfies. If MAGA snipers killed over a hundred people to frame Biden and he fled for his life, that would be a coup.

Uhhhh... they tried to stop the legal transfer of power. That was an attempted coup. FACT.

[Geronimo]

The separatists didn't need to be set up, the people in these regions wanted greater autonomy and the Nazis said fu to them. Why do the victims have to be politicians? If the leader is framed for a massacre and flees for his life that isn't a coup because he wasn't killed? Where did you find that requirement in the definition?

Oh good, because Azov didn't need to be setup either so I guess now you'll stop invoking them to justify everything Russia does.

The victims don't need to be politicians but the crimes against the victims do need to be politically coercive if they are not. Violence as deception would not count. You need to understand that if force=violence, your Webster definition starts to include scenarios that do not even remotely resemble a coup. The definition is clearly using a narrower sense of the word "force" than just "violence". Dictionaries don't work if you don't use some critical thinking.

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[Geronimo]

I agree with your wider point but I don't get your example.

A simpler example in my mind was if a leader were assassinated, is that a coup? I don't ever (credibly) hear the assassination of Lincoln or Kennedy referred to as such, or the attempts on Thatcher or the Queen by the IRA to be a coup.

You're right certainly. The difficulty with a simple assassination example is that arguably that could become a coup simply based on who was ultimately responsible for the assassination. According to the very broad dictionary definition that Berz gave the assassination might be construed as "exercise of force in politics". I'm trying to show that violence cannot be equivalent to force in that definition without inviting absurd conclusions.

"a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" - Merriam Webster

[Dauphin]

To say otherwise implies other bizarre scenarios such as that if a leader was reelected in large measure for ordering a successful special military operation against a Nazi neighbor then I guess that election would become a coup and the runner up would be the legitimate leadership. It's nuts Berz.

I agree with your wider point but I don't get your example.

A simpler example in my mind was if a leader were assassinated, is that a coup? I don't ever (credibly) hear the assassination of Lincoln or Kennedy referred to as such, or the attempts on Thatcher or the Queen by the IRA to be a coup.

[Geronimo]

"a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" - Merriam Webster

The massacre was a violent alteration of the existing govt, its purpose was to overthrow the leader. Do you think the snipers had to shoot at him to qualify as a coup? The right wing did get power, Azov marched against the Donbas with our weapons and high ranking members of various right wing factions got important positions in govt as they cracked down on various undesirables. Nuland mentioned one of their leaders in that phone call with Amb Pyatt. Tatanyook or something. She told Pyatt to keep him and the boxer Klitchko on the outside helping the guy she wanted. That was 2-3 weeks before the coup. Murdering over 100 people with Obama's blessing had no coercive force on the political process? What was the vote to replace the leader before the massacre?

They wouldn't have needed to shoot him but they certainly would have needed to arrest him, hold a gun to his head or otherwise use force against him or functional members of his government. The massacre certainly could have been force if delivered with any sort of ultimatum or coercion. It's not use of force to frame the leadership for a crime. Violence without coercion isnt force. It's just violence.

To say otherwise implies other bizarre scenarios such as that if a leader was reelected in large measure for ordering a successful special military operation against a Nazi neighbor then I guess that election would become a coup and the runner up would be the legitimate leadership. It's nuts Berz.

But as fun as this is to debate how would Viktor losing power in a "coup", however you like to define "coup" have any relevance in 2014 let alone 2022? A coup doesn't confer any sort of license to secede or nullify any state treaties.

[Berzerker]

Only if it's also a coup for a leader to be elected after killing an unpopular protestor with his bare hands on national TV and getting elected partly due to jury nullification and public backlash against the protests.

It's not enough to have violent toadies, do something violent personally, or even gain power in part due to violent actions. The violent actions must constitute some sort of coercive force applied to the political process.

I would agree that a leader forced to flee for his life could be a coup if those who gained power forced him to flee. I don't agree that Viktor was forced to flee. I don't agree that those who gained power were threatening his life or using force.

"a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics and especially the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group" - Merriam Webster

The massacre was a violent alteration of the existing govt, its purpose was to overthrow the leader. Do you think the snipers had to shoot at him to qualify as a coup? The right wing did get power, Azov marched against the Donbas with our weapons and high ranking members of various right wing factions got important positions in govt as they cracked down on various undesirables. Nuland mentioned one of their leaders in that phone call with Amb Pyatt. Tatanyook or something. She told Pyatt to keep him and the boxer Klitchko on the outside helping the guy she wanted. That was 2-3 weeks before the coup. Murdering over 100 people with Obama's blessing had no coercive force on the political process? What was the vote to replace the leader before the massacre?

[Geronimo]

I saw a brief summary of a recent report claiming 4.5 million people have died as a direct or indirect result of our foreign policy since 9/11.

It's probably 4.5 billion killed by the US. That's how the malthusian crisis was avoided.

[Geronimo]

The separatists didn't need to be set up, the people in these regions wanted greater autonomy and the Nazis said fu to them. Why do the victims have to be politicians? If the leader is framed for a massacre and flees for his life that isn't a coup because he wasn't killed? Where did you find that requirement in the definition?

Only if it's also a coup for a leader to be elected after killing an unpopular protestor with his bare hands on national TV and getting elected partly due to jury nullification and public backlash against the protests.

It's not enough to have violent toadies, do something violent personally, or even gain power in part due to violent actions. The violent actions must constitute some sort of coercive force applied to the political process.

I would agree that a leader forced to flee for his life could be a coup if those who gained power forced him to flee. I don't agree that Viktor was forced to flee. I don't agree that those who gained power were threatening his life or using force.

[Geronimo]

Don't tell me something about what I have seen with my own eyes in 90's.


You are a fking colonial robbers, always have been, are and always will be!
That is the NATURE of the West, your essence!

Really? . "I have seen with my own eyes[/U] in 90's."??

How is that even possible? You saw them load up the assets into cargo planes running from the cops?

What did you actually see with your own eyes Serb?

[Berzerker]

Ukraine will make it 5 mil

[Berzerker]

I saw a brief summary of a recent report claiming 4.5 million people have died as a direct or indirect result of our foreign policy since 9/11.

[Serb]

An obvious hypocrisy and double talking of the West will never stop to stun me!


How ones could be such and open and obvious liars and took all other for idiots?

OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!!

[Serb]

And yeah, if the democratically elected and legitimate president was not killed, then the coup doesn't count!!!

It doesn't even count as a coup either, if he was killed, when the coup was inspired, instigated and performed by the West, because the West is a beacon of freedom and never do anything wrong!!!​

[Serb]

Perhaps he found that in a text of political agreement between Yanukovich and the opposition to stop the violence and do a new presidential election.
The treaty which was GUARANTEED by the state secretaries of Germany, France and Poland!
The treaty, which those "guarantors" used as a toilet paper the next very day they have signed it, when Yanukovich had fulfilled its part removed police from the street and left the capital to Kharkiv for the congress of his political party.

[Berzerker]

No...Putin sent the FSB in immediately and set up the Separatists. It was only after Azov that he sent regular Russian military formations in.

no group violently altered the existing government unless the 100 victims were supposedly parliamentarians or their friends family or employees...in which case all signs point to Viktor.

The separatists didn't need to be set up, the people in these regions wanted greater autonomy and the Nazis said fu to them. Why do the victims have to be politicians? If the leader is framed for a massacre and flees for his life that isn't a coup because he wasn't killed? Where did you find that requirement in the definition?