Prediction Thread: When Will Ukraine Conquer Russia

[Berzerker]

Except that Russia started hostilities by sending green men to Crimea, seizing control, then annexxing it. Russian "volunteer" forces also participated on the side of the so-called separatists in Donbas, there's plenty of evidence. And those "separatists", as we see now, were not at all about autonomy, separatism or even independence - they were just a means to carve out pieces of Ukraine that Putin liked to have for a variety of reasons.

Hostilities began when the elected leader of Ukraine was ousted by a coup backed by the USA. Ukraine had millions of "separatists" who opposed that coup and they knew who the muscle was behind it. Persecution was coming, group by group. Millions of Ukrainians rejected the coup and right wing rule, they weren't little green men. If you're right, why did Russia and the people of the Donbas support Minsk? That deal kept them in Ukraine.

As for Crimea, the people there didn't support the coup either and they were defended by Russia's military bases. Any country in that situation would move in more forces to protect their bases. Ukraine blockaded Crimea but Russia didn't attack them. Why didn't the millions of eastern Ukrainians join Azov to repel Russian little green men? Have you noticed how our media ignores opinion polls of people living in war zones when democracy gets in the way of profit?

[BeBMan]

Except that Russia started hostilities by sending green men to Crimea, seizing control, then annexxing it. Russian "volunteer" forces also participated on the side of the so-called separatists in Donbas, there's plenty of evidence. And those "separatists", as we see now, were not at all about autonomy, separatism or even independence - they were just a means to carve out pieces of Ukraine that Putin liked to have for a variety of reasons.

[Dinner]

Well, that is both retarded and stupid. Please tell me how the parliament following the constitution after a corrupt former President flees the country after trying to execute his opposition is a "coup". He was legally removed, new elections were legally held, after he committed gross human rights violations and crimes against the people. A strange "coup" which follows the constitution.

A more honest and intelligent person would call that following the constitution. Don't let facts get in your way of spouting horse crap Putinist propaganda though.

[Geronimo]

Hostilities began when the elected leader of Ukraine was ousted by a coup backed by the USA. Ukraine had millions of "separatists" who opposed that coup and they knew who the muscle was behind it. Persecution was coming, group by group. Millions of Ukrainians rejected the coup and right wing rule, they weren't little green men. If you're right, why did Russia and the people of the Donbas support Minsk? That deal kept them in Ukraine.

As for Crimea, the people there didn't support the coup either and they were defended by Russia's military bases. Any country in that situation would move in more forces to protect their bases. Ukraine blockaded Crimea but Russia didn't attack them. Why didn't the millions of eastern Ukrainians join Azov to repel Russian little green men? Have you noticed how our media ignores opinion polls of people living in war zones when democracy gets in the way of profit?

OMG Berz. How the hell did millions of Ukrainians "know" who the muscle was behind the coup? Even if we (inexplicably) concede your point that the US somehow successfully engineered the entire coup how in the hell would this be visible to ordinary Ukrainians? Every Ukrainian on the public payroll saw American accented sunglasses, suit and cowboy boots clad CIA agents routinely meeting with their bosses behind closed doors? Watching Jimmy Dore videos?

If Russia supported Minsk why didn't they leave Ukraine? Why didn't they do anything whatsoever to implement any of it whatsoever? If Russia and the separatists wanted peace why did they raise an army in Donbas?

For the record Berz, how do you see when an opinion poll is getting in the way of profit?

[Berzerker]

Well, that is both retarded and stupid. Please tell me how the parliament following the constitution after a corrupt former President flees the country after trying to execute his opposition is a "coup". He was legally removed, new elections were legally held, after he committed gross human rights violations and crimes against the people. A strange "coup" which follows the constitution.

A more honest and intelligent person would call that following the constitution. Don't let facts get in your way of spouting horse crap Putinist propaganda though.

https://youtu.be/mJhJ6hks0Jg

The BBC interviewed one of the Maidan snipers, they fired on protesters and cops. It was a right wing coup and Victoria Nuland picked the successor weeks before the massacre.

[Berzerker]

OMG Berz. How the hell did millions of Ukrainians "know" who the muscle was behind the coup? Even if we (inexplicably) concede your point that the US somehow successfully engineered the entire coup how in the hell would this be visible to ordinary Ukrainians? Every Ukrainian on the public payroll saw American accented sunglasses, suit and cowboy boots clad CIA agents routinely meeting with their bosses behind closed doors? Watching Jimmy Dore videos?

If Russia supported Minsk why didn't they leave Ukraine? Why didn't they do anything whatsoever to implement any of it whatsoever? If Russia and the separatists wanted peace why did they raise an army in Donbas?

For the record Berz, how do you see when an opinion poll is getting in the way of profit?

They figured it out like you did, if it wasn't already obvious the right wing ran around attacking protesters. Opinion polls only matter when profiteers make $$$ off democracy, when democracy is in the way polls no longer matter. Minsk was negotiated after Kiev sent an army to attack eastern Ukrainians and after the separatists defended themselves. Minsk was not enforced because the US and Azov didn't support it, the last thing we wanted was peace in the region. When Zelensky got elected to end the war he went to the front line to remove Azov and they told him to leave and he did. Thats muscle.

[Geronimo]

https://youtu.be/mJhJ6hks0Jg

The BBC interviewed one of the Maidan snipers, they fired on protesters and cops. It was a right wing coup and Victoria Nuland picked the successor weeks before the massacre.

Couldn't you have found a transcript? watching videos is so slow. did you watch it Berz? Not only does "Sergey" not point to Americans as his handlers, but the video even makes clear that Ukrainians were at least as likely to blame Moscow for shooting at the protestors and police. What do you know that they don't?

Nuland picked Yatsenyuk before he gained power therefore he gained power because Nuland placed him in power?

I guess that means that since Putin picked Trump before he gained power that therefore Putin placed Trump in power?

[Dinner]

https://youtu.be/mJhJ6hks0Jg

The BBC interviewed one of the Maidan snipers, they fired on protesters and cops. It was a right wing coup and Victoria Nuland picked the successor weeks before the massacre.

The Russian puppet called in Russian forces to fire on protesters first. That is confirmed and not subject to debate. You are whining because people fought back when their government and foreign military tried to kill them. Also, we have all seen the generic discussion with Nuland and it was just a run of the mill embassy staff discussing breaking events and war gaming how things might go one way or another. You are just vomiting up retarded, old, disproven Putinist propaganda lies.

[BeBMan]

Looks like the CNN-Obama-Biden-Neocon connection is at it again:

A stallion purportedly owned by the Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov was stolen from a private stable in the Czech Republic’s Krabčice municipality.

The 16-year-old thoroughbred nicknamed Zazou, worth $18,000, disappeared from the stable the night before March 4, report the local media.

The Czech police has confirmed the fact of the animal’s disappearance. Police detectives think that the thief removed the safety chain from the sliding barn door and led the horse away.

Jezdci, a Czech publication covering horsemanship and races, writes that Kadyrov had purchased Zazou in 2012, and then brought him to Krabčice from Dubai. In 2014, Zazou became part of Kadyrov’s sanctioned European property.

In March 2022, the local media reported another attempt to take Zazou from the stable, together with a second Kadyrov-owned horse. About a month before Russia invaded Ukraine, two Russian-speaking men came to the barn claiming they had to move the horses to Poland. After the barn owner refused to cooperate, they spent five days camping in their trailer not far from the barn.

A kingdom for a horse! Linky

[Uncle Sparky]

Well, this explains everything. Kadyrov was going to let a barechested Putin ride Zazou into Ki'ev at the head of a victorious Russian column. Putin would then accept Ukraine's surrender, and feed Zelenskyy to his pet Siberian tiger. Then he would spend the rest of the evening blowing on little boys' tummies, in a grandfatherly way.
Zazhou was key - the entire plan was called off.

[BeBMan]

Let's hope the horse doesn't end up in some restaurant

[Berzerker]

Couldn't you have found a transcript? watching videos is so slow. did you watch it Berz? Not only does "Sergey" not point to Americans as his handlers, but the video even makes clear that Ukrainians were at least as likely to blame Moscow for shooting at the protestors and police. What do you know that they don't?

Nuland picked Yatsenyuk before he gained power therefore he gained power because Nuland placed him in power?

I guess that means that since Putin picked Trump before he gained power that therefore Putin placed Trump in power?

Yes I did watch it, the video was in response to Dinner blaming the leader for the massacre when it was Maidan snipers shooting at cops and protesters. Why would Russia shoot up a protest to blame the leader? The snipers were located on ground controlled by Maidan backers and the weapons were stored in a building they controlled. The sniper said he was a protester and they were recruited by Maidan security forces. He gained power because of the coup after Nuland picked him. Was Trump elected following a coup that forced Obama to flee?

[Berzerker]

The Russian puppet called in Russian forces to fire on protesters first. That is confirmed and not subject to debate. You are whining because people fought back when their government and foreign military tried to kill them. Also, we have all seen the generic discussion with Nuland and it was just a run of the mill embassy staff discussing breaking events and war gaming how things might go one way or another. You are just vomiting up retarded, old, disproven Putinist propaganda lies.

You just ignored a BBC interview with a sniper. Where is your confirmed and undebatable source?

[PLATO]

Leading up to 2014, Ukraine was undeniably starting to lean West. The President of Ukraine decided that he would rather be Russia's puppet and buy into their oligarch corruption scheme for himself. The people, having their will being thwarted arose to protest. The President decided to respond with force. It matters not if the U.S. helped the people of Ukraine respond to this oppression or not. The people were responding on their own. The President decided to de facto abdicate his position by fleeing to his master's protection. The parliament responded constitutionally (as Dinner has indicated above).

The simple truth is that the Russians were trying to take over a sovereign country thru subverting its leadership. When this failed, they started a military escalation that we see culminating now. The people of Ukraine wanted to be free and not Russia's puppets. How does it even matter if we helped them with that or not? The will of the people has been further expressed in several elections since then.

Berz...what you spout is nothing but conspiracy theory that, even if true, is not relevant to what the people of Ukraine wanted...and will hopefully achieve. A free and independent country that embraces Western values. How could anyone support something different unless you truly love oppression?

[Jon Miller]

I have been seeing a lot of anti-supporting Ukraine pieces like https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ations/673293/. in serious magazines (like the Atlantic) recently.

It seems to me to clearly biased ('if you fight back, then you will have more atrocities committed against you, so better not fight back...' ), but I am wondering if I am missing something.

JM

[Berzerker]

Maidan didn't have majority support and we dont coup governments for that, we coup governments that do what the majority wants. Ofc Russia was bribing Ukraine, so was the west. Both sides were tugging and Putin won that day so we backed a coup and armed an assault on Ukrainians who didn't bend the knee. Every government responds with force when they're attacked, the Maidan massacre came from right wing protesters.

The people of Ukraine voted for peace and that was without millions of voters affected by the war. Why not let the Donbas decide their fate? Cant... the west already knew they were party poopers before the coup and we needed their resistance for our proxy war anyway.

"What was meant to be a revolution for democracy and liberal values ended up featuring ultranationalist chants from the 1930s and prominent displays of fascist and white supremacist symbols, including the American Confederate flag."

https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-p...ia-nato-crimea

oh the irony... back to the liberal hypocrisy thread?

"The day after the deal was signed, Parliament ratified what was effectively an insurrection, voting to strip the presidency from Yanukovych, to the praise of the US ambassador."

Good 'ole democracy

"Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy met with Svoboda’s fascist leader, standing shoulder to shoulder with him as they announced their support to the protesters, while US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland handed out sandwiches to them. To understand the provocative nature of such moves, you only need to remember the establishment outrage over the mere idea Moscow had used troll farms to voice support for Black Lives Matter protests."

Russian troll farms supported the Democrats? And there's Victoria again handing out food, so sweet to see her motherliness kick in when there's blood to be spilled.

"It’s an overstatement to say, as some critics have charged, that Washington orchestrated the Maidan uprising. But there’s no doubt US officials backed and exploited it for their own ends."

But democracy... oppression...

[PLATO]

Maidan didn't have majority support

Since your opening words are so clearly wrong, the rest of your post is nonsensical.

However, if you would like to persist in the fallacy of thinking that people would rather live under oppressive authoritarianism that is directed from a foreign country INSTEAD of being free to determine their own fate, then you are free to do so.

It is quite clear from all evidence, both before the ouster of the wannabe dictator (evidenced by many protests) and after (evidenced by elections), that Ukraine wanted to be free of Russian influence.

But good on ya for continuing to believe the twisted lies of Putin's propaganda machine.

[Berzerker]

The article I linked said the majority didn't support Maidan. If you have polling showing otherwise then link it for us.