Exploring Russian atrocity claims

[Geronimo]

You will never defeat us. Period.

Who here said they wanted Russia defeated? Ukraine left alone would not be any kind of Russian defeat.

[Serb]

Epigraph:
- Вы что тут, бляди, козла отпидорасили?
- Он первый начал!!! (c.)

Yes, it's another bloody Ukraine thread. This one has a narrow, specific purpose: to look into Russian claims of Ukrainian misdeeds in the country's eastern half in the leadup to the current war, to explain why I find those claims unconvincing, and to give Serb a chance to push back.

Ok, here we go, Uncle, as I’ve promised!!!

I didn't want to jack somebody else's thread, so please return the favor by leaving out childish (or adult) insults, arguments about the broader war, Putin, Stalin, etc. This is a thread for me, Serb, and anybody else who has a thoughtful contribution to make. I ask the mods to please courteously backhand anybody they catch pooping on my thread.

Ok! I am second for that, with the only exception – this is not your thread anymore, it’s mine from now!!!

So: the story goes, as I understand it, that people in the eastern portion of Ukraine were doing something like ethnic cleansing to Russians living inside the country. I read a quote from some Russian defense official claiming that this has been going on for eight years, ie since the annexation of Crimea. Putin became aware of this and decided to intervene. The war was necessary to put an end to the slaughter, and therefore just.

You got it wrong!
The story has begun with the Western-sponsored coup in Kiev at 2014 when the Ukranian constitution have been violated 11 times and a legal democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown by the armed mob you have wholeheartedly supported (despite the agreement about peaceful ousting of Yanukovich signed by the ministers of foreign affairs of Germany, France, Poland and Russia, in accordance to this agreement Yanukovich should abstain within a year and a new elections should be held, the “West” have spit on the agreement he has signed and overthrew the Yanukovich the next very day, when he withdrew the law enforcing forces, which was a part of the deal.
That was the first big Western lie!
The whole Maidan bloody show has been held under the slogans:

“Knife the Russians!!!”

“Hang the Russians!!!”

Who is not jumping is Moskal (the swearing word for “Russian”)

Then, the first law the Ukrainian parliament have issued after ousting Yanukovich (which he has no right to do without the impeach procedure) was to ban the Russian language (despite 80% citizens of Ukraine are considering it as their native language and use it for communication with their family, when they are not watched by the big Nazi SBU brother (SBU = Ukrainian security service).
That, with on pair with the anti-constitutional coup (The people have a right to rebel if the constitution is violated, right? The Ukrainian constitution has been violated during the coup not for once, but for 11 times!!!) had led to Crimea to rebel and proclaim its independence during a referendum. The next day they have plead to Russia to join the Russian Federation and were accepted.
There were waves of rebellion in all other regions of Ukraine after the coup. In some regions, like Kharkiv and Odessa the new Nazi authorities have suppressed those uprising with terror – like they did in Odessa, when the Nazis have BURNT ALIVE dozens of really peaceful protestors.

But instead of charging the murderers, the Nazi authorities of Kiev have charged survivors “for participating in protests”.
None f*cking Nazi murderer who was burning people alive and then finishing off the survivors who jumped from the windows from the third floor, with an iron bars, have never being brought to justice within 8 years since the tragedy!!!

NONE!!!

Then the people of Donbass took arms to protect themselves and the Kiev’s regime threw bombers, tanks and artillery against their cities (this is something I told you in a thread back then in 2014 – that you will applaud when the new authorities of Kiev will start a bloodbath at Donbass and start killing Russians there on a mass-scale). I have warned you that you will do so, but you still did!!!
Because you are fkn dumbass brainwashed zombies who just reapeat whatever your media tells you!

First question: When did Putin become aware that this mistreatment was taking place, and why did he take so long to address it? I ask because it has been clear for some time that Putin was planning or threatening to invade Ukraine. Months, easily. It had gotten to the point where I was frankly thinking, "c'mon, man, crap or get off the pot." And that's just the point at which foreign observers cottoned on that something was up. This isn't how I would expect anyone to react to the wholesale slaughter of his countrymen. If we in the US were in a period of very tense relations with Canada, and it came up that figures connected to the Canadian government were killing American expatriates en masse, I would expect a period of maybe a week where we sent angry ultimata and demands, and if the issue was not at least on its way to resolution by then the tanks would be headed to Montreal. Because more people are dying that whole time.

First answer:

Putin has become aware of this in 2014!!! When the Ukrainian bombers, artillery and tanks were trying to suppress the rebellion of Donbass.
Then out of a sudden the outcome of the Ukrainian civil war has ended with the Ukrainian forces being encircled by the rebels at Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo pockets. Then Ukraine plead for peace and Minsk agreement have being signed.
The whole point of Minsk agreement is VERY CLEAR!
The full text as follows:

1. Immediate and comprehensive ceasefire in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine and its strict implementation as of 15 February 2015, 12am local time.
2. Withdrawal of all heavy weapons by both sides by equal distances in order to create a security zone of at least 50km wide from each other for the artillery systems of caliber of 100 and more, a security zone of 70km wide for MLRS and 140km wide for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch and Tactical Missile Systems (Tochka, Tochka U): -for the Ukrainian troops: from the de facto line of contact; -for the armed formations from certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine: from the line of contact according to the Minsk Memorandum of Sept. 19th, 2014; The withdrawal of the heavy weapons as specified above is to start on day 2 of the ceasefire at the latest and be completed within 14 days. The process shall be facilitated by the OSCE and supported by the Trilateral Contact Group.
3. Ensure effective monitoring and verification of the ceasefire regime and the withdrawal of heavy weapons by the OSCE from day 1 of the withdrawal, using all technical equipment necessary, including satellites, drones, radar equipment, etc.
4. Launch a dialogue, on day 1 of the withdrawal, on modalities of local elections in accordance with Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions” as well as on the future regime of these areas based on this law. Adopt promptly, by no later than 30 days after the date of signing of this document a Resolution of the Parliament of Ukraine specifying the area enjoying a special regime, under the Law of Ukraine “On interim self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, based on the line of the Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014.
5. Ensure pardon and amnesty by enacting the law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
6. Ensure release and exchange of all hostages and unlawfully detained persons, based on the principle “all for all”. This process is to be finished on the day 5 after the withdrawal at the latest.
7. Ensure safe access, delivery, storage, and distribution of humanitarian assistance to those in need, on the basis of an international mechanism.
8. Definition of modalities of full resumption of socio-economic ties, including social transfers such as pension payments and other payments (incomes and revenues, timely payments of all utility bills, reinstating taxation within the legal framework of Ukraine). To this end, Ukraine shall reinstate control of the segment of its banking system in the conflict-affected areas and possibly an international mechanism to facilitate such transfers shall be established.
9. Reinstatement of full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine throughout the conflict area, starting on day 1 after the local elections and ending after the comprehensive political settlement (local elections in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions on the basis of the Law of Ukraine and constitutional reform) to be finalized by the end of 2015, provided that paragraph 11 has been implemented in consultation with and upon agreement by representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, as well as mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine (Hello, NATO! – Serb) under monitoring of the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
11. Carrying out constitutional reform in Ukraine with a new constitution entering into force by the end of 2015 providing for decentralization as a key element (including a reference to the specificities of certain areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, agreed with the representatives of these areas), as well as adopting permanent legislation on the special status of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in line with measures as set out in the footnote until the end of 2015.
12. Based on the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
13. Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group"

Ukraine did NOTHING to fulfill the agreement they have signed! And the Western power, as the guarantors of the fulfillment of this agreement did nothing as well, instead they have started to pumping-up Ukraine with arms and encouraging it for a revanche for their defeats of 2014-2015!

Which brings me to my second question: Why did Putin react so oddly to this slaughter? He really buried the lede here. Admittedly, we get everything in translation and selections here, so our summaries tend to say things like "Putin said Ukrainian nationhood was a chimera, demanded some stuff about NATO, and made unsubstantiated claims of Ukrainian atrocities." But (assuming this is at all accurate) why in the hell did Putin bother over making demands about ruling out Ukrainian NATO membership, etc.? They've been killing Russians for years! Are you really offering to let them off the hook for that if we tell them we won't ever let them in our clubhouse? The crimes against humanity just feel like one more item in a laundry list of complaints, when they're the single best claim he would have to the moral high ground--if they were true.

The Russians have a great patience. We have should have finish this sh!t back then in 2014, right after the attack on Donbass. But, we have tried to resolve it peacefully, without a war. You and your puppet stupidly thought that we will tolerate a genocide forever – idiots!

Русские долго запрягают, но быстро ездят!

That is a Russian saying, which means: Russians harness for a long time, but they drive fast!

why in the hell did Putin bother over making demands about ruling out Ukrainian NATO membership, etc.?

Because Ukraine in NATO is the existential threat for us!
Sooner or later the dumbass American engineers will figure out how to make hypersonic missiles and then it will be a 3 minutes flight time from Ukrainian territory to Moscow.


WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN!

Moreover – the military infrastructure of NATO will be withdrawn to the limits of 1997 very soon!
The last time the West was in alike situation in 1962, you have nearly started a nuclear war, because of our missiles at Cuba (but then withdrew your missiles from Turkey and Italy to end the Cuban crisis).
We sent you a CLEAR SIGNAL that your presence in the Easter Europe is not acceptable, you have replied with throwing your lackey mad dog into attack on Donbass.
Now it is on it’s last breath, because we have intervened.

It's your turn!

You either accept the new reality where the US of A is no longer a hegemon over this planet or d i e.
Simple as that. Unfortunately!
And since I know how stupid and arrogant (a self-proclaimed Nazis uberhumans) you (the West) are, I’m afraid that you will prefer to live into your fantasy world.
Thus you will d i e.
Including your bellowed Calgary in flames.

Third: Why aren't these atrocities better known outside of Russia? Ethnic cleansing is not easy to hide. China is very, very good at hiding stuff, and it's been trying hard to hide the stuff it's doing to the Uighurs with little success. Ukraine is not China; it's far poorer and I really cannot believe it has better security. People escape from jails, or ask questions about missing neighbors and coworkers. Videos get smuggled out and spread. Reporters get nosy. It is not plausible that Ukraine kept the equivalent of concentration camps running for years without leaks.

The third answer:

Because you are just don’t notice them!
Your brainwashing media machine never shows them!
“Your son of a b!tch is your son of a b!tch always!”
You live in an Empire of lie!
Do you honestly think that the Third Reich has shown to its population how a millions of people have been exterminated in their concentration camps on a daily basis?


Do you want me to bring me some video evidences of Ukranian atrocities?
(though those videos are being erased on youtube on a daily basis, because the West is all about the freedom of speech and never censor anything!)

As an addendum to the third question and anticipation of a probable objection: No, American media would not be disinterested in this, nor would the authorities be able to hush them.

Do you really believe in your own bullsh!t?


What a f*cking dummy you are then?!

To the first, genocide is something of an attention-getter by itself, and ... well, you'll have to take my word for it that our newscritters just can't get enough about stories concerning white women in danger. Every damn time a blonde college student goes missing on vacation, they wet their pants with excitement. This story would be like that on steroids.

And what? The same story is true about the Third Reich as well!

When a single German blonde is missing – it is an end of the World!!! When millions of Jews/Russians being slain on a daily basis – who needs to know about that? There are sub-humans after all.
You are living in a typical Nazi society, where the life of the “White people” people is precious, while killing a millions of “rag heads” or “natives” is nothing!

Yes, our news people would be interested.

Not at all!
You ban news people who are trying to tell you the truth for all you care!

And as for censorship or government control, if our government was capable of shutting up narratives it didn't want people to hear, it would have sat down hard on "vaccines don't work, the CDC is lying about everything, mask mandates are fascist" or "January 6th was a praiseworthy attempt to stop the treacherous theft of the presidency." The former undermined our response to a deadly disease and the latter called the fundamental legitimacy of the government into question.

I’m telling you the facts, you are making a COVID assumptions.
Keep living in your wet dreams, the unaware Nazi!

Why the hell would we let those slide, but use our censorship powers on a story of little immediate importance to America? Do you, Serb, really believe spiting Russia matters more to us than beating a pandemic or prosecuting an assault on our legislature?

Of course!
Because you are so f*cking afraid of us!
The COVID can’t kill your entire Nation, but we can ANY F*CKING SECOND!
And we will, if you don’t come in sence!
And your Western governments know that, that is why you have started a war against us and demonize us like the Nazis did with the Jews.
We are not humans for you any longer, thanks to your everyday brainwashing propaganda.
Ok!
We will show you once again who are the real “sub-humans”.
But this time we will not repeat our past mistakes and will not be so gently to the defeated.

Fourth: Why was Ukraine doing these things? Leaving aside the part where Ukrainians and Russians are supposed to be near identical and Ukrainian nationhood is a recent fiction, it's not a secret that Russia is larger and more powerful than Ukraine. Russia already took the Crimea with little effort; provoking an enemy who has just proven he can whoop you is an act of suicidal idiocy. We are presently pleased to see that Ukraine has lasted five whole days without having its capital conquered; nobody knowledgeable seriously expects the country to hold out over the long term on its own, and the most optimistic credible projections are that Putin will win in the end but be forced to withdraw by the intransigence of the population, domestic unrest, etc. No, we in the US will not be risking nuclear war by intervening directly. Whatever happens, Ukraine will be wrecked, and it will not recover quickly. You are suggesting that the Russian bear swiped at them and drew blood, and they were so mad they ran up and kicked the bear repeatedly in the balls, assuming that the pain to the bear would be worth their own demise. Where does this stupidity come from?

The fourth answer:

We have intervened because you left us no choice. You were making an Anti-Russia out of Ukraine during all those years. Your puppet has killed 14 000 Russian people at Donbass.
Had we didn’t make a first move, few hours later your mad dog launched a full-scale offensive at Donbass.
They did nothing to fulfill the Minsk agreement, so, our patience is over.
Now they will test on their own skin what they were doing to Donbass all these years.
And it’s still a lite version, because if we were like the West, we would just leveled the whole place to the ground.

For all these reasons, and probably others that escape me at the moment, I find it most credible to believe that the stories, videos, etc. are fabrications.

No sh!t, Sherlock?!!!
You are just a Nazi, living in a fancy Nazi World, where Russians are to blame for everything.

[QUOTE=Elok;n9431537Putin concocted them, rather lazily and thoughtlessly, as part of a hodgepodge of excuses for war, intending to throw them at the wall and see what stuck with various audiences. He never expected us to believe them; those tales were for domestic consumption. If you have a better explanation, I'm all ears. [/QUOTE]

You are not all ears!
You are deaf and blind!!!
Just like any other Westerner.

[Geronimo]

Thanks for taking so much time for this response Serb!

[giblets]

Who here said they wanted Russia defeated? Ukraine left alone would not be any kind of Russian defeat.

It's a defeat of their imaginary right to rule every country where more than two people speak Russian.

edit: sorry, didn't know Serb was about to make a serious post

[Serb]

Happy now, Uncle? My post is not approved again,

[Serb]

It's a defeat of their imaginary right to rule every country where more than two people speak Russian.

edit: sorry, didn't know Serb was about to make a serious post

I've spent a couple of hours to type it in Word, but now it's not approved by the moderator!
The Western freedom of speech at its best!

No censorship allowed in any case!!!

[Serb]

Ming will never alow my reply to Elok be visible, the only hope that uncle doesn't support the "cancel culture"

[Serb]

Epigraph:
- Вы что тут, бляди, козла отпидорасили?
- Он первый начал!!! (c.)

Yes, it's another bloody Ukraine thread. This one has a narrow, specific purpose: to look into Russian claims of Ukrainian misdeeds in the country's eastern half in the leadup to the current war, to explain why I find those claims unconvincing, and to give Serb a chance to push back.

Ok, here we go, Uncle, as I’ve promised!!!

I didn't want to jack somebody else's thread, so please return the favor by leaving out childish (or adult) insults, arguments about the broader war, Putin, Stalin, etc. This is a thread for me, Serb, and anybody else who has a thoughtful contribution to make. I ask the mods to please courteously backhand anybody they catch pooping on my thread.

Ok! I am second for that, with the only exception – this is not your thread anymore, it’s mine from now!!!

So: the story goes, as I understand it, that people in the eastern portion of Ukraine were doing something like ethnic cleansing to Russians living inside the country. I read a quote from some Russian defense official claiming that this has been going on for eight years, ie since the annexation of Crimea. Putin became aware of this and decided to intervene. The war was necessary to put an end to the slaughter, and therefore just.

You got it wrong!
The story has begun with the Western-sponsored coup in Kiev at 2014 when the Ukranian constitution have been violated 11 times and a legal democratically elected president of Ukraine was overthrown by the armed mob you have wholeheartedly supported (despite the agreement about peaceful ousting of Yanukovich signed by the ministers of foreign affairs of Germany, France, Poland and Russia, in accordance to this agreement Yanukovich should abstain within a year and a new elections should be held, the “West” have spit on the agreement he has signed and overthrew the Yanukovich the next very day, when he withdrew the law enforcing forces, which was a part of the deal.
That was the first big Western lie!
The whole Maidan bloody show has been held under the slogans:

“Knife the Russians!!!”

“Hang the Russians!!!”

Who is not jumping is Moskal (the swearing word for “Russian”)

Then, the first law the Ukrainian parliament have issued after ousting Yanukovich (which he has no right to do without the impeach procedure) was to ban the Russian language (despite 80% citizens of Ukraine are considering it as their native language and use it for communication with their family, when they are not watched by the big Nazi SBU brother (SBU = Ukrainian security service).
That, with on pair with the anti-constitutional coup (The people have a right to rebel if the constitution is violated, right? The Ukrainian constitution has been violated during the coup not for once, but for 11 times!!!) had led to Crimea to rebel and proclaim its independence during a referendum. The next day they have plead to Russia to join the Russian Federation and were accepted.
There were waves of rebellion in all other regions of Ukraine after the coup. In some regions, like Kharkiv and Odessa the new Nazi authorities have suppressed those uprising with terror – like they did in Odessa, when the Nazis have BURNT ALIVE dozens of really peaceful protestors.

But instead of charging the murderers, the Nazi authorities of Kiev have charged survivors “for participating in protests”.
None f*cking Nazi murderer who was burning people alive and then finishing off the survivors who jumped from the windows from the third floor, with an iron bars, have never being brought to justice within 8 years since the tragedy!!!

NONE!!!

Then the people of Donbass took arms to protect themselves and the Kiev’s regime threw bombers, tanks and artillery against their cities (this is something I told you in a thread back then in 2014 – that you will applaud when the new authorities of Kiev will start a bloodbath at Donbass and start killing Russians there on a mass-scale). I have warned you that you will do so, but you still did!!!
Because you are fkn dumbass brainwashed zombies who just reapeat whatever your media tells you!

First question: When did Putin become aware that this mistreatment was taking place, and why did he take so long to address it? I ask because it has been clear for some time that Putin was planning or threatening to invade Ukraine. Months, easily. It had gotten to the point where I was frankly thinking, "c'mon, man, crap or get off the pot." And that's just the point at which foreign observers cottoned on that something was up. This isn't how I would expect anyone to react to the wholesale slaughter of his countrymen. If we in the US were in a period of very tense relations with Canada, and it came up that figures connected to the Canadian government were killing American expatriates en masse, I would expect a period of maybe a week where we sent angry ultimata and demands, and if the issue was not at least on its way to resolution by then the tanks would be headed to Montreal. Because more people are dying that whole time.

First answer:

Putin has become aware of this in 2014!!! When the Ukrainian bombers, artillery and tanks were trying to suppress the rebellion of Donbass.
Then out of a sudden the outcome of the Ukrainian civil war has ended with the Ukrainian forces being encircled by the rebels at Ilovaisk and Debaltsevo pockets. Then Ukraine plead for peace and Minsk agreement have being signed.
The whole point of Minsk agreement is VERY CLEAR!
The full text as follows:

1. Immediate and comprehensive ceasefire in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine and its strict implementation as of 15 February 2015, 12am local time.
2. Withdrawal of all heavy weapons by both sides by equal distances in order to create a security zone of at least 50km wide from each other for the artillery systems of caliber of 100 and more, a security zone of 70km wide for MLRS and 140km wide for MLRS Tornado-S, Uragan, Smerch and Tactical Missile Systems (Tochka, Tochka U): -for the Ukrainian troops: from the de facto line of contact; -for the armed formations from certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine: from the line of contact according to the Minsk Memorandum of Sept. 19th, 2014; The withdrawal of the heavy weapons as specified above is to start on day 2 of the ceasefire at the latest and be completed within 14 days. The process shall be facilitated by the OSCE and supported by the Trilateral Contact Group.
3. Ensure effective monitoring and verification of the ceasefire regime and the withdrawal of heavy weapons by the OSCE from day 1 of the withdrawal, using all technical equipment necessary, including satellites, drones, radar equipment, etc.
4. Launch a dialogue, on day 1 of the withdrawal, on modalities of local elections in accordance with Ukrainian legislation and the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions” as well as on the future regime of these areas based on this law. Adopt promptly, by no later than 30 days after the date of signing of this document a Resolution of the Parliament of Ukraine specifying the area enjoying a special regime, under the Law of Ukraine “On interim self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, based on the line of the Minsk Memorandum of September 19, 2014.
5. Ensure pardon and amnesty by enacting the law prohibiting the prosecution and punishment of persons in connection with the events that took place in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
6. Ensure release and exchange of all hostages and unlawfully detained persons, based on the principle “all for all”. This process is to be finished on the day 5 after the withdrawal at the latest.
7. Ensure safe access, delivery, storage, and distribution of humanitarian assistance to those in need, on the basis of an international mechanism.
8. Definition of modalities of full resumption of socio-economic ties, including social transfers such as pension payments and other payments (incomes and revenues, timely payments of all utility bills, reinstating taxation within the legal framework of Ukraine). To this end, Ukraine shall reinstate control of the segment of its banking system in the conflict-affected areas and possibly an international mechanism to facilitate such transfers shall be established.
9. Reinstatement of full control of the state border by the government of Ukraine throughout the conflict area, starting on day 1 after the local elections and ending after the comprehensive political settlement (local elections in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions on the basis of the Law of Ukraine and constitutional reform) to be finalized by the end of 2015, provided that paragraph 11 has been implemented in consultation with and upon agreement by representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group.
10. Withdrawal of all foreign armed formations, military equipment, as well as mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine (Hello, NATO! – Serb) under monitoring of the OSCE. Disarmament of all illegal groups.
11. Carrying out constitutional reform in Ukraine with a new constitution entering into force by the end of 2015 providing for decentralization as a key element (including a reference to the specificities of certain areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, agreed with the representatives of these areas), as well as adopting permanent legislation on the special status of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in line with measures as set out in the footnote until the end of 2015.
12. Based on the Law of Ukraine “On interim local self-government order in certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions”, questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of certain areas of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
13. Intensify the work of the Trilateral Contact Group including through the establishment of working groups on the implementation of relevant aspects of the Minsk agreements. They will reflect the composition of the Trilateral Contact Group"

Ukraine did NOTHING to fulfill the agreement they have signed! And the Western power, as the guarantors of the fulfillment of this agreement did nothing as well, instead they have started to pumping-up Ukraine with arms and encouraging it for a revanche for their defeats of 2014-2015!

Which brings me to my second question: Why did Putin react so oddly to this slaughter? He really buried the lede here. Admittedly, we get everything in translation and selections here, so our summaries tend to say things like "Putin said Ukrainian nationhood was a chimera, demanded some stuff about NATO, and made unsubstantiated claims of Ukrainian atrocities." But (assuming this is at all accurate) why in the hell did Putin bother over making demands about ruling out Ukrainian NATO membership, etc.? They've been killing Russians for years! Are you really offering to let them off the hook for that if we tell them we won't ever let them in our clubhouse? The crimes against humanity just feel like one more item in a laundry list of complaints, when they're the single best claim he would have to the moral high ground--if they were true.

The Russians have a great patience. We have should have finish this sh!t back then in 2014, right after the attack on Donbass. But, we have tried to resolve it peacefully, without a war. You and your puppet stupidly thought that we will tolerate a genocide forever – idiots!

Русские долго запрягают, но быстро ездят!

That is a Russian saying, which means: Russians harness for a long time, but they drive fast!

why in the hell did Putin bother over making demands about ruling out Ukrainian NATO membership, etc.?

Because Ukraine in NATO is the existential threat for us!
Sooner or later the dumbass American engineers will figure out how to make hypersonic missiles and then it will be a 3 minutes flight time from Ukrainian territory to Moscow.


WE WILL NEVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN!

Moreover – the military infrastructure of NATO will be withdrawn to the limits of 1997 very soon!
The last time the West was in alike situation in 1962, you have nearly started a nuclear war, because of our missiles at Cuba (but then withdrew your missiles from Turkey and Italy to end the Cuban crisis).
We sent you a CLEAR SIGNAL that your presence in the Easter Europe is not acceptable, you have replied with throwing your lackey mad dog into attack on Donbass.
Now it is on it’s last breath, because we have intervened.

It's your turn!

You either accept the new reality where the US of A is no longer a hegemon over this planet or d i e.
Simple as that. Unfortunately!
And since I know how stupid and arrogant (a self-proclaimed Nazis uberhumans) you (the West) are, I’m afraid that you will prefer to live into your fantasy world.
Thus you will d i e.
Including your bellowed Calgary in flames.

Third: Why aren't these atrocities better known outside of Russia? Ethnic cleansing is not easy to hide. China is very, very good at hiding stuff, and it's been trying hard to hide the stuff it's doing to the Uighurs with little success. Ukraine is not China; it's far poorer and I really cannot believe it has better security. People escape from jails, or ask questions about missing neighbors and coworkers. Videos get smuggled out and spread. Reporters get nosy. It is not plausible that Ukraine kept the equivalent of concentration camps running for years without leaks.

The third answer:

Because you are just don’t notice them!
Your brainwashing media machine never shows them!
“Your son of a b!tch is your son of a b!tch always!”
You live in an Empire of lie!
Do you honestly think that the Third Reich has shown to its population how a millions of people have been exterminated in their concentration camps on a daily basis?


Do you want me to bring me some video evidences of Ukranian atrocities?
(though those videos are being erased on youtube on a daily basis, because the West is all about the freedom of speech and never censor anything!)

As an addendum to the third question and anticipation of a probable objection: No, American media would not be disinterested in this, nor would the authorities be able to hush them.

Do you really believe in your own bullsh!t?


What a f*cking dummy you are then?!

To the first, genocide is something of an attention-getter by itself, and ... well, you'll have to take my word for it that our newscritters just can't get enough about stories concerning white women in danger. Every damn time a blonde college student goes missing on vacation, they wet their pants with excitement. This story would be like that on steroids.

And what? The same story is true about the Third Reich as well!

When a single German blonde is missing – it is an end of the World!!! When millions of Jews/Russians being slain on a daily basis – who needs to know about that? There are sub-humans after all.
You are living in a typical Nazi society, where the life of the “White people” people is precious, while killing a millions of “rag heads” or “natives” is nothing!

Yes, our news people would be interested.

Not at all!
You ban news people who are trying to tell you the truth for all you care!

And as for censorship or government control, if our government was capable of shutting up narratives it didn't want people to hear, it would have sat down hard on "vaccines don't work, the CDC is lying about everything, mask mandates are fascist" or "January 6th was a praiseworthy attempt to stop the treacherous theft of the presidency." The former undermined our response to a deadly disease and the latter called the fundamental legitimacy of the government into question.

I’m telling you the facts, you are making a COVID assumptions.
Keep living in your wet dreams, the unaware Nazi!

Why the hell would we let those slide, but use our censorship powers on a story of little immediate importance to America? Do you, Serb, really believe spiting Russia matters more to us than beating a pandemic or prosecuting an assault on our legislature?

Of course!
Because you are so f*cking afraid of us!
The COVID can’t kill your entire Nation, but we can ANY F*CKING SECOND!
And we will, if you don’t come in sence!
And your Western governments know that, that is why you have started a war against us and demonize us like the Nazis did with the Jews.
We are not humans for you any longer, thanks to your everyday brainwashing propaganda.
Ok!
We will show you once again who are the real “sub-humans”.
But this time we will not repeat our past mistakes and will not be so gently to the defeated.

Fourth: Why was Ukraine doing these things? Leaving aside the part where Ukrainians and Russians are supposed to be near identical and Ukrainian nationhood is a recent fiction, it's not a secret that Russia is larger and more powerful than Ukraine. Russia already took the Crimea with little effort; provoking an enemy who has just proven he can whoop you is an act of suicidal idiocy. We are presently pleased to see that Ukraine has lasted five whole days without having its capital conquered; nobody knowledgeable seriously expects the country to hold out over the long term on its own, and the most optimistic credible projections are that Putin will win in the end but be forced to withdraw by the intransigence of the population, domestic unrest, etc. No, we in the US will not be risking nuclear war by intervening directly. Whatever happens, Ukraine will be wrecked, and it will not recover quickly. You are suggesting that the Russian bear swiped at them and drew blood, and they were so mad they ran up and kicked the bear repeatedly in the balls, assuming that the pain to the bear would be worth their own demise. Where does this stupidity come from?

The fourth answer:

We have intervened because you left us no choice. You were making an Anti-Russia out of Ukraine during all those years. Your puppet has killed 14 000 Russian people at Donbass.
Had we didn’t make a first move, few hours later your mad dog launched a full-scale offensive at Donbass.
They did nothing to fulfill the Minsk agreement, so, our patience is over.
Now they will test on their own skin what they were doing to Donbass all these years.
And it’s still a lite version, because if we were like the West, who would just leveled the whole place to the ground.

For all these reasons, and probably others that escape me at the moment, I find it most credible to believe that the stories, videos, etc. are fabrications.

No sh!t, Sherlock?!!!
You are just a Nazi, living in a fancy Nazi World, where Russians are to blame for everything.

[QUOTE=Elok;n9431537Putin concocted them, rather lazily and thoughtlessly, as part of a hodgepodge of excuses for war, intending to throw them at the wall and see what stuck with various audiences. He never expected us to believe them; those tales were for domestic consumption. If you have a better explanation, I'm all ears. [/QUOTE]

You are not all ears!
You are deaf and blind!!!
Just like any other Westerner.

[Serb]

No censorship in the West World at all, my ass!

[dannubis]

At least here you don't go to jail for reporting on facts you clown.

[Serb]

Say that to a peaceful protesters of Capitol!
Or to anyone whom you banned or threw to jail for their not so "tolerate" thoughts.

[Serb]

You f*ckers have invented the term "cancel culture", but still living in a wet dream that you are beacon of freedom!
Amazing idiots!

[Serb]

You are really as dumb, as a piece of wood!

[Elok]

Serb, I'm pretty sure the "post approval" flagging is purely automated and based on primitive pattern recognition. In your case, I'm guessing it noticed you were posting something long and involved, whereas usually you post a few lines at a time, perhaps with an embedded video or image, and it made the leap unusual behavior for poster->potential zombiebot takeover->flag for mods. Or some such. It flagged the hell out of my posts when I first came back after a long hiatus. Didn't know what to do with me. It was annoying, I can tell you.

Everybody else, if we could can the snark, please? It doesn't much matter, as Lent starts tomorrow and I'll skedaddle, but I seem to recall we used to be able to discuss at least a few things like grownups on here. Back in the mists of time, circa 2005. That could be a matter of selective memory, of course.

[Serb]

Yeah! There is no censorship in America.

[Buster Crabbe's Uncle]

What a thing to wake up to, and have to 'approve'...

Serb, you've failed the no trolling-shouting-swearing rule I laid down last page. Is it just not in you to talk rationally?

[Geronimo]

Thanks for "unbanning" Serb's post