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  • I am saying that people can not prove everything, or even most things, in life. Some things, which I am personally think are wrong, are unable to be proven to be wrong due to time/etc. People allow others, especially for events that happened in the past, so handle issues of proof and truthfulness and so on. As such, if many people believe something to be true over an extended period of time for events that happened in the past and whose truthfulness can no longer be directly probed using the techniques available to forensics, science, etc, then it reasonable to believe it is true. It doesn't make it true, it makes an individual a reasonable person if they believes it to be true.

    Obviously many people will believe things to be true that aren't true and things to be false which are true and so on. And all of that is reasonable.

    Scientology was created recently enough that we can use tools to probe the majority of it's statements. Mormonism happened recently enough that many of it's statements can be probed although not all. The vast majority of Sikh, Christian, Hindu, etc all happened long ago enough that we can probe the truthfulness at all, or our tools would suggest to someone without very strong priors that the Resurrection happened/etc. The priors aren't even that resurrections don't happen as Christianity doesn't predict that they do happen, Christianity said that 1 (or really, 3) happened about 2000 years ago due to a once in universe history event. It is fundamentally outside of the range of Science unless Science invents time travel. So the strong prior necessary to say that a the Resurrection is definitely false is a prior that Christianity is false, which is a tautology.

    But it is even reasonable in the case of Scientology to think it true. Scientology happened a long time ago, and someones interest could be on other things. There are kids raised in scientology.

    I am not saying that Christianity is provably wrong. But if you were alive 2000 years ago, or had a time machine, you could prove Christianity wrong. Now you really can't. I mean, you could imagine situations (aliens appear with amazing technology and talk about how they wanted to set us on a better path and so invented Jesus 2000 years ago) which could really disrupt things, but nothing that we can expect to do so.

    BTW, there is a fundamental difference between the claims that most/all Christians make about the Resurrection (which make it impossible to disprove and were always the claims that Christians claimed about the Resurrection, this is not a case of the claims shifting as science advances/etc) and those that a few Christians make about Noah's Ark. That is because the claims about Noah's Ark impact the relationship that animals have with one another/etc now.. which is proven (with science) not to be the case. Now you can probably come up with some system (like an alternative universe or world ala Hitchhiker's Guild that Noah existed in and was then transported or connected with this one) where it could both be true.... or you could realize that even if you take the traditional view that Moses wrote the Pentateuch then you have the situation where Moses is writing down myths and legends that he heard (Which might have some truth, but liken't aren't be correct in all details) and not events that he observed or someone he knew observed.

    JM
    (And of course, the majority of Christians recognize that Moses lived 1600-1200 BC and our first full copies of the Pentateuch are after 500 BC and arguably the first reference to them around 700 BC, unlike Chrisst's Life, Death and Resurrection where we have Jesus life around 30 AD and written stories of His life referenced a few decades after His death with copies that we have available to us now dated to a century after His death.)
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

    Comment


    • I am saying that people can not prove everything, or even most things, in life. Some things, which I am personally think are wrong, are unable to be proven to be wrong due to time/etc. People allow others, especially for events that happened in the past, so handle issues of proof and truthfulness and so on. As such, if many people believe something to be true over an extended period of time for events that happened in the past and whose truthfulness can no longer be directly probed using the techniques available to forensics, science, etc, then it reasonable to believe it is true. It doesn't make it true, it makes an individual a reasonable person if they believes it to be true.

      Obviously many people will believe things to be true that aren't true and things to be false which are true and so on. And all of that is reasonable.

      Scientology was created recently enough that we can use tools to probe the majority of it's statements. Mormonism happened recently enough that many of it's statements can be probed although not all. The vast majority of Sikh, Christian, Hindu, etc all happened long ago enough that we can probe the truthfulness at all, or our tools would suggest to someone without very strong priors that the Resurrection happened/etc. The priors aren't even that resurrections don't happen as Christianity doesn't predict that they do happen, Christianity said that 1 (or really, 3) happened about 2000 years ago due to a once in universe history event. It is fundamentally outside of the range of Science unless Science invents time travel. So the strong prior necessary to say that a the Resurrection is definitely false is a prior that Christianity is false, which is a tautology.

      But it is even reasonable in the case of Scientology to think it true. Scientology happened a long time ago, and someones interest could be on other things. There are kids raised in scientology.

      I am not saying that Christianity is provably wrong. But if you were alive 2000 years ago, or had a time machine, you could prove Christianity wrong. Now you really can't. I mean, you could imagine situations (aliens appear with amazing technology and talk about how they wanted to set us on a better path and so invented Jesus 2000 years ago) which could really disrupt things, but nothing that we can expect to do so.

      BTW, there is a fundamental difference between the claims that most/all Christians make about the Resurrection (which make it impossible to disprove and were always the claims that Christians claimed about the Resurrection, this is not a case of the claims shifting as science advances/etc) and those that a few Christians make about Noah's Ark. That is because the claims about Noah's Ark impact the relationship that animals have with one another/etc now.. which is proven (with science) not to be the case. Now you can probably come up with some system (like an alternative universe or world ala Hitchhiker's Guild that Noah existed in and was then transported or connected with this one) where it could both be true.... or you could realize that even if you take the traditional view that Moses wrote the Pentateuch then you have the situation where Moses is writing down myths and legends that he heard (Which might have some truth, but liken't aren't be correct in all details) and not events that he observed or someone he knew observed.

      JM
      (And of course, the majority of Christians recognize that Moses lived 1600-1200 BC and our first full copies of the Pentateuch are after 500 BC and arguably the first reference to them around 700 BC, unlike Chrisst's Life, Death and Resurrection where we have Jesus life around 30 AD and written stories of His life referenced a few decades after His death with copies that we have available to us now dated to a century after His death.)
      Jon Miller-
      I AM.CANADIAN
      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

      Comment


      • Guess what, we don't have to prove it's wrong. You have to prove it's right, and if you can't, it's FANTASY.
        "

        Comment


        • Uncle Sparky
          Uncle Sparky commented
          Editing a comment
          I'll throw a d20 again tomorrow to consider JM's double post...
          Throwing a d20 is, of course, beseeching the D&D Deities.
          100% religion, no fantasy here!
          (Did you realize the word 'deified' is a palindrome?)

      • So let's see... if some fiction is believed by a lot of people, and they believe it for a really long time, it is no longer fiction but real?
        I fail to see the logic of that...
        Keep on Civin'
        RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

        Comment


        • As such, if many people believe something to be true over an extended period of time for events that happened in the past and whose truthfulness can no longer be directly probed using the techniques available to forensics, science, etc, then it reasonable to believe it is true. It doesn't make it true, it makes an individual a reasonable person if they believes it to be true.

          Christianity said that 1 (or really, 3) happened about 2000 years ago due to a once in universe history event


          WTF man? At school there was this kid who would make up tall tales. He claimed to be struck by lightning and said he could see his bones light up from the inside and that's why his hair wasn't combed, type yarns. Now, a large number of kids being naive and stupid believed his stories, and he claimed that these were all unique to him because he was actually a space alien with mind control powers. Many of the stories have no way of being disproven now, and about half the people who heard the story believed it. If we are accepting that this once in the lifetime of the universe bar is being accepted as the standard of reasonable belief, and this kid wasn't claiming that what happened to him wasn't anything but freakishly rare such as it may never ever happen again, then I guess we have to assume that this is reasonable to believe as true because science can't interrogate that it wasn't true for a brief moment in the past when over half the school year believed the otherwise obvious nonsense.
          One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

          Comment


          • I wonder if it's an April's Fools joke, because it sounds like he's quoting the metaphysics from Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods".
            "

            Comment


            • Uncle Sparky
              Uncle Sparky commented
              Editing a comment
              OK I remember that... hmmmmm...

          • I was thinking American Gods by Neil Gaiman, same concept.
            One day Canada will rule the world, and then we'll all be sorry.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Dauphin View Post
              I was thinking American Gods by Neil Gaiman, same concept.
              Now those are gods you can believe in
              Keep on Civin'
              RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

              Comment


              • American Gods and Small Gods are both great. Small Gods is my favorite Terry Pratchett work.

                We are not talking about what is true, and haven't been. We have been talking about what is reasonable. It is very different to take an event from described by someone known to tell fables and then hold to it despite criticisms/etc (although this worked for Smith of Mormonism) over long things of time. But, Dauphin, for your friend... probably no one or almost no one believes it in anymore. Their kids definitely won't be brought up believing it. So no, it is completely different. Completely different as there is nothing about being hit by lightning and seeing your bones that makes it a once in the universe sort of event, the expectation (if true) would be that lightning sometimes caused people to be able to see their bones or that there was some physical process to do that. The claim of Christianity is that Christ is literally God and so He could not stay dead (there is some additional theology there, but it isn't central). Does Christianity claim that anyone else is literally God? Does Science or anything other than other religions claim that anyone else is God?

                In a way your friends claim is like the claim that a few Christians make about Noah's Ark. It is a claim about behavior that could be observed now completely unlike the Resurrection of Jesus Christ 2000ish year ago. Additionally, it can be probed using other means (which you have done, and probably many of your classmates have done in the years since... which is why I talked about a group of people (And experts!) who a reasonable person would consider authorities. I understand that you don't consider theologians and what not authorities, but they have all of the properties of authorities unlike anyone who believed your friend decades ago).

                And there are once in a million or once in a billion or once in history/etc events. If you ruled out the improbable as improbable, you would end up with a very different universe than the one we live in. And that is ignoring events which by their definition would be once in a universe sort of events (and outside of what could be investigated using the tools of science), such as the Resurrection if the basic traditional Christian view is true.

                JM
                (To be clear again I am not talking about Christianity and it's validity. I am talking about the general structure of reason and evidence and authority and how people reasonably hold beliefs as true/etc.)
                Jon Miller-
                I AM.CANADIAN
                GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                Comment


                • By the way, Gaiman was in a way raised in Scientology and listening to him talk about it is some of what led me to believe that the children of Scientologists can now reasonably believe Scientology is true.

                  JM
                  Jon Miller-
                  I AM.CANADIAN
                  GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                  Comment


                  • Well JM... I guess we will agree to disagree. I just don't see why a long history of a myth/fable/fantasy and the fact that many people believe is reason to claim that believing in such is logical. Especially when there is a long history and many believers of other religions that are all very different. Especially when they contradict each other. There is no logic in believing one vs the other, or any of them for that matter.
                    Keep on Civin'
                    RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                    Comment


                    • I find it insane that you can not conceive of reasonable people considering different pieces of evidence, authorities, and so on and coming to different conclusions. It boggles the mind.

                      JM
                      Jon Miller-
                      I AM.CANADIAN
                      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                      Comment


                      • And exactly what evidence of God are you talking about?
                        Just because there is a Bible, or some other documents, it is not proof of a god.
                        And how do you justify your god vs others except your own personal beliefs. All religions seem to have the same claim that they are the true one... all been around a while, and many people believe...
                        I'm not saying religious people aren't reasonable... I'm saying their belief in a god is not logical... It is a personal belief and nothing more...
                        It is NOT INSANE to not believe a myth.
                        Keep on Civin'
                        RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                        Comment


                        • Basing a belief on authority is sane and logical, we all do it. We all have varying beliefs not due to our imperfect ability to reason (although at times it is the case), but rather because due to various complicated factors we have different sets of authorities that we give credence to. You assigning one set of authorities credence and reaching one set of beliefs and another person giving credence to another set of authorities and reaching a different set of beliefs is going to happen continually throughout the space of human thought and practice.

                          This is perfectly logical. It is what every reasoning person does, whether they believe in God or don't, whether they are Christian or not, whether they think that the muon's measured G-2 is roughly 4 deviations away from the theoretically predicted value or not. It is not logical, it is madness, to claim that you (or anyone should) only hold things as true that are scientifically or mathematically proven to be true (which means proven to be true by you, and not by authorities).

                          You singling out religion or the belief in God (or gods) to somehow be outside of this practice which is the foundation of human thought and practice is what is unreasonable.

                          I am saying that it is insane (or hypocritical or misanthropic) to call all of those who believe in God (or gods) to be illogical. Not that it is insane to not believe in God (or gods) and so on.

                          JM
                          (I already noted that it is reasonable and many scientists do so, to be an atheist because you consider such questions to be uninteresting if there is not the possibility of scientific or mathematical proof. But that is very different than saying that you only think things are true that you have scientifically or mathematically proven to be true. )
                          Jon Miller-
                          I AM.CANADIAN
                          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                          Comment


                          • Uncle Sparky
                            Uncle Sparky commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I rolled an 18 on a d20.
                            You are completely wrong JM. By your interpretation, we should all accept that the philosophy, based on hundreds of years of experience, that certain races are inferior because of skin colour is scientifically acceptable. Slavery, which has been practiced by a vast number of societies, is completely justifiable.

                            Personally, I do not believe in God, or god. And I 'died' about 9 years ago. When I was having my heart attack, I did not pray, beseech, or have any metaphysical thoughts. Nor when I woke up the next day in an ICU. Or over the next few days in the Cardio Unit. Several weeks later, flipping channels on TV, I flipped past a religious program, and thought, 'Oh yeh... I died, had a surgeon use his skills to bring me back to life, and didn't one think of yelling hallelujah! or praise Buddha!'
                            I did, however, see 'the man behind the curtain'!!! The first 12 hours or so in the Cardio unit, I had a roommate.
                            Enjoy your fantasy. But my 18 roll proves definitively you are very very wrong.

                        • Belief is not reality... as I said, people are welcome to believe in some mythical god... nothing wrong with that.
                          But to do so defies logic since there isn't a shred of evidence to support such a belief... just a bunch of old tales and a feeling.
                          Just because you believe in a higher authority... doesn't mean there is one.
                          Keep on Civin'
                          RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

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