Happy Easter

[Ming]

Belief and Fact are two different things.
You are welcome to "Believe" anything you want... beauty, right or wrong, Santa, God... whatever you want.
They are personal to you... but not to others.
But to believe as a fact something that can't be proved is illogical. A belief, yes, but illogical.

[Kidlicious]

The atheist doesn't believe they have eternal life, so they made their sacrifice believing it was over, game over, man. That makes their sacrifice greater than a son of god who will be right back.

It doesn't matter what they believe. It matters what they actually sacrificed. And if the atheist can have eternal life then he sacrificed nothing more.

[Ming]

Where did I claim that it makes it true? Something being true or false is different than it being fantasy.

Science and rational philosophy leaves questions that it hasn't answered as unknowns. It takes an agnostic approach, whether it is about God or the existence of a black hole in our solar system. Now many scientists would consider the question of the existence of God as fundamentally uninteresting because they can't imagine how it could be proven scientifically or could be relevant to their scientific understanding of the world. And that is reasonable.

But that is very different than saying that everything that isn't proved is fantasy.

JM
(I know that I am confusing a bit the scientific approach, philosophical approach and the common approach. For the common approach fantasy depends on what people beleive independent of rational inquiry. In common language, which is probably the most important approach, fantasy holds for things which are accepted as not being part of reality. And as such anything that any significant group of people believe in is by definition not fantasy.)

Definition of fantasy
1 : the power or process of creating especially unrealistic or improbable mental images in response to psychological need an object of fantasy also : a mental image or a series of mental images (such as a daydream) so created sexual fantasies

2 : a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: such as
a : a chimerical or fantastic notion His plans are pure fantasy.
b : imaginative fiction featuring especially strange settings and grotesque characters spent the summer reading fantasy — called also fantasy fiction

Gee, religion seems to fit the bill perfectly here.
And the fact that nobody can even agree which God is the real God kind of really sums it up.

[Ming]

It doesn't matter what they believe. It matters what they actually sacrificed. And if the atheist can have eternal life then he sacrificed nothing more.

And can you prove that there is eternal life? Or are you just sprouting what somebody else spoon fed into your head.

[Dauphin]

A system of religion that requires faith without proof as badge of honour is just plain fraud and manipulation. Blatantly trying to avoid challenge and discredit opposition. Classic behaviours of cults and demagogues.

I can appreciate the parables of Jesus and live by such teaching without needing to believe he walked on water or have me pay tithes to a priest or the Pope. If to not have faith prejudices me in the world that may be to come, then that God shouldn't have given me a brain in this one.

[Kidlicious]

You're just repeating the same mistake Ming is making, requiring proof for belief. No one thinks like that. You don't think like that, but you expect others to.

[Dauphin]

No, because proving something and believing without proof aren't the only options

[Kidlicious]

Belief and Fact are two different things.
You are welcome to "Believe" anything you want... beauty, right or wrong, Santa, God... whatever you want.
They are personal to you... but not to others.
But to believe as a fact something that can't be proved is illogical. A belief, yes, but illogical.

When did anyone say that they believe in their religion as fact? Never.

Will you quit now, or keep going?

[EPW]

Fantasy is not the correct way to refer to any religion (including Scientology). Fantasy is agreed upon as being not true, anything that a group of people believe in is by definition not Fantasy.

That's bull**** sir. Please consult your nearest dictionary.

[Kidlicious]

And can you prove that there is eternal life? Or are you just sprouting what somebody else spoon fed into your head.

If you keep insisting that people need to prove things or claiming that they said they could then your premise it wrong. So everything else you say is wrong.

[Ming]

When did anyone say that they believe in their religion as fact? Never.

Will you quit now, or keep going?

Moving the goal post yet again... I said believing in something that can't be proved by fact is not logical.
I don't give a damn if you actually believe it is a fact or not, but it's your belief that is illogical.
So try again.

[Ming]

If you keep insisting that people need to prove things or claiming that they said they could then your premise it wrong. So everything else you say is wrong.

Blah blah blah... Your premise was based on something that can't be proved. Your premise is base on eternal life being real... Prove that it is, or your premise is full of ****

[Kidlicious]

I said believing in something that can't be proved by fact is not logical
.

I know what you said, over and over again, and it's wrong every time. I'm simply requiring you to correct yourself so that you don't continue in folly.

[Kidlicious]

Blah blah blah... Your premise was based on something that can't be proved. Your premise is base on eternal life being real... Prove that it is, or your premise is full of ****

Still wrong.

[EPW]

A lot of reality consists of things for which there doesn't (and generally, can't) exist proof, including the existence of Homer/etc. That doesn't mean that we should be confused about reality and fantasy.

You and Kid are the only ones confused.

Please, let's not confuse and invalidate the meaning of words. I am not saying this just because I am Christian, I would be saying the same if it was about Hinduism or Scientology.

Or a Muslim?

Myth and legend is suitably malleable. If you want to imply that a specific set of beliefs are lacking in basis, intellectual rigor, or anything similar use one of those words.

I'll use whatever words I like, thank you very much.

After all, Troy was a myth and then we found it. It was never fantasy.

JM
(And some myths were never part of reality.)

So you believe in the Greek Pantheon too?

[Ming]

Prove there is a god... an afterlife... that Jesus was the son of god... and on and on and on. You can't.
There is no right or wrong if you believe or don't believe in god. But it is illogical to believe something that can't be proved to exist.
Do you believe every word of the Bible... It's no different than a comic book or other myths passed on by generation to generation.
While you are welcome to believe, it isn't logical

[Ming]

Do you guys believe in other Gods? Because other people do. Actually, more people believe in other gods than yours.
They think you guys are believing in a fantasy, because theirs are the true gods.