Help Elok understand the ongoing Russia ... thingy

[Jon Miller]

I think you mean that if there was no collusion, then there would be no outrage (on this issue) against Trump.

Of course there is outrage against Russia (if it was a major effort, as it appears to be). Just like there was outrage in Germany against the US for spying on Merkel. Of course that is the sort of thing the US might do, but just the same being outraged about it is entirely appropriate.

Unless Germany was a client state of the US (or the US is a client state of Russia).

JM

[Jon Miller]

"Whether there was ultimately any collusion between Russia and individual members of the Trump campaign, there can be no doubt after the memo that the government had good reason to investigate Russian attempts to place and recruit assets there. Any American who cares about protecting our elections and democratic processes from foreign interference should want no stone uncovered in exposing how successful Russia was in its efforts. Nunes may have thought he was proving the FBI was out to get Trump. Instead, he proved the FBI was right to worry."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/02/04/devin-nunes-tried-to-discredit-the-fbi-instead-he-proved-its-onto-something

JM

[pchang]

A group that certainly deserves a heaping helping of scorn are those who would undermine the Russia investigation in the name of political expediency.

[Dinner]

Amen.

[Aeson]

[I AM I AM I AM MOBIUS]

da da da
fa fa fa
ba ba ba
wool?
(approprolols)

[Elok]

Umm - you have totally missed the point. Of course every country tries to influence other countries to do what they want. There is no outrage there. Now, if Trump or his campaign accepted help from Russia, that is where the outrage is. That would definitely be impeachable.

Elok - I have always thought of you as a thoughtful poster. If you have completely missed the point of the Russia investigation, then our Democracy is truly in trouble.

Well, since I can't see any way the help would be meaningful or effective, it doesn't bug me. If there were actually a way for him to make a big difference, and he did it, and he was stupid enough to involve a half-senile loudmouth like Trump in the process AND trust his promises to do something in return ... well then, that would be a different matter. As it is, it's like we accused him of, I don't know, stealing the moon or something. It doesn't seem credible that he did anything effective and I'm not surprised or offended if he tried. We do this kind of crap regularly, albeit we don't usually have the chutzpah to do it to somebody powerful or important. If Trump colluded, by all means impeach the ass, he needs to go anyway.

"Hacked the election." What does that even mean? Did he donate just enough money to somehow override Clinton's massive capital advantage? Or did he somehow produce magic memes that overrode a certain number of Americans' thought processes so that they decided to vote for the most manifestly unfit candidate in American history when they would otherwise have been reasonable? I don't think the human brain works that way. I have yet to see a single political meme that wasn't preaching to the converted. And let's be honest, if people are that simple to manipulate then democracy--all democracy--is a farce anyway. Those d-bags in Guy Fawkes masks would be right, the only scandal here would be that we were bought by foreign, rather than domestic, money.

[Dinner]

I can see easy ways the help could, and probably was, both meaningful and effective. Remember Putin doesn't need to change the minds of the 3.5 million more people who voted for Hillary and instead all he needs to do with change about 10,000 minds in the right swing districts of a few swing states. Providing several hundred million dollars targeting those areas (especially since the internet ads allow them to specifically target just those people), using Putin's state funded troll army (look it up if you are unfamiliar) to spread misinformation, and then deliberately hacking the other side to both release out of context info which can be made to seem embarrassing but also to tell the side they are supporting exactly where Hillary was campaigning and which messages they were running with... Well, it is very easy, extremely easy, to flip the few thousand low information voters they need just in the areas they need them.

Even if they were not able to do that, which I think they did, it is still ****ing criminal to the Nth degree especially since we know Trump was promising them sanctions relief and a free hand in places like Syria (that offer itself was also against the law). All of that is before we get to the cover up and the obstruction of justice he has engaged in to facilitate the cover up. You may remember that Watergate itself didn't do Nixon in but the cover up after the fact did.

[Jon Miller]

There were actually analyses looking at the effect of hacked information releases. I think they were significant?

To my knowledge, no one in the media fully understands the problem with the targeted advertisements, in part because the relevant US countries have not been totally transparent about the matter.

I think to view either as so much water on the bridge is a big mistake though, and would just welcome further, larger election 'hacks'.

JM
(And yes, I can see why you might not feel there is so much of a difference between the international Oil companies and finance companies and so on seeking to influence the election and the international Russian government doing so.)

[Elok]

Well, it is very easy, extremely easy, to flip the few thousand low information voters they need just in the areas they need them.

If it's that bloody easy, why couldn't Hillary do it? It's not like Russia is a fantastically rich country, or poor Russian people have some Mephistophelian insight into the American psyche.

[Jon Miller]

Hillary definitely has fault for ignoring Wisconsin and Michigan.

But actually, Russians do have an advantage in some of these areas because US campaigns haven't used them (or use the Russian groups).

https://www.wired.com/story/what-did-cambridge-analytica-really-do-for-trumps-campaign/

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/russia-scandal-unfolds-cambridge-analytica-draws-new-scrutiny

JM

[Elok]

So Assange (not Russian) leaked Hillary's e-mails (exhaustively pored over, nothing all that damning, known for months before the election), which were in fact hacked by Russian Intelligence (would be criminal if Trump were involved, have not heard claims or evidence of such), then talked to the president of a (non-Russian, heavily hyped) company which was also retained by Trump though they supposedly decided to use RNC data instead. IIUC Clinton could have used this Cambridge Analytics, but chose not to. And now, a guy who is linked to Russia also talked to them about doing something. What's the import of this? If they're such hot stuff, I'd expect lots of people asking to employ them.

EDIT: No, they offered to help Assange. Still not all that unexpected.

[Uncle Sparky]

Still waiting for the tax evasion charges... when in doubt, jail 'em for tax evasion. They will probably have to wait until Trump is no longer president.

On another side note, Canada (and other NATO members) are very careful with what they are currently sharing with the Americans. Trump is not seen as trustworthy, and his declassification for political gain proves them right.

[Jon Miller]

IIUC Clinton could have used this Cambridge Analytics, but chose not to. And now, a guy who is linked to Russia also talked to them about doing something. What's the import of this? If they're such hot stuff, I'd expect lots of people asking to employ them.

But many people don't because of their Russian links.

I guess you missed this:

http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/27/dutch-intelligence-infiltrated-russian-group-that-hacked-us-democratic-party-

The release may have come from Assuage/etc but the information came from Russian hacking groups.

JM

[Aeson]

... the only scandal here would be that we were bought by foreign, rather than domestic, money.

This is a massive difference.