Baffled by Charlottesville

[Elok]

I think it's fair to ask just WTF the police were doing; I can't recall seeing cops in any of these videos. But I've heard contradictory accounts from all sorts of people. I had a Facebook friend tell me that the Nazis were heavily armed and explicitly set out to incite violence. It seems to me that, if that were the case, they'd have a death toll higher than one. Also, the videos all show guys with sticks and spray-painted riot shields, maybe a helmet for every three people or so. So I know there's some BS going on.

As for confronting them . . . what did that accomplish here? Americans despised Nazis before. They despise Nazis now. I don't think it's done a whole lot to Trump's approval rating. Nobody's opinion changed in any way. A lot of people got the **** beat out of them, and one civilian and two cops are dead. That's . . . about it.

[Dinner]

How many police were available, and did they plan for a confrontation scenario by drafting in nearby support or specialist protest containment units? Were the police who were there trained in riot and protest control?

Trump said the Alt-Right organizers had a permit - if true (which given the source is probably not), surely safety and policing would have formed a part of the decision?

They did all that. They had units from all over the state including national guard units. What they ACLU has said is that they have confirmed that the city mayor gave all the law enforcement a stand down order and effectively gave the city streets over to extremists.

This is the same thong which happened in the Berkley riots and I find it absolutely criminal. Many people have complained there were lots of cops there but they stood back and did nothing because that is what the mayor told them to do.

[Elok]

Why, though? Do they just hate protesters, or are they so spooked by police brutality suits that they'd rather let them brutalize each other, or what?

[Aeson]

It's a clear win for those who oppose Trump. It weakened Trump's administration, weakened Trump's relationship with much of the GOP, destroyed Trumps "business advisory panels", forced Trump to at least half-heartedly express derision towards some of his core constituency, and gave the media one more giant stick to keep whacking at Trump with.

So it's clear why the counter-demonstrators would have wanted to counter-demonstrate even knowing, perhaps especially knowing, that the Nazis and WS would get violent. The real question is why the WS and Nazis would have done this? (Answer: they're ignorant.)

[Elok]

The poll from the OP also covers Trump's approval rating over time. It's fluctuated only slightly since February, even after the riots and Trump's bungled response (I think there might be a typo in results, and that they mean people were asked on the fourteenth and fifteenth, not sixteenth and seventeenth). This broadly meshes with my limited anecdotal experience; people on the left exult over how this proves Trump is a Nazi sympathizer and share slams by Colbert, etc., while people on the right remark that they were fine with the statues staying up and those antifa punks are just as bad (nb that the majority, including forty percent of black respondents, wants the statues to stay up). Has anybody personally encountered anyone who changed their mind about Trump, or anything else, in the wake of the riots?

I don't know what the business advisory panels did, tbh. Wasn't aware of their existence until after C-ville.

[Elok]

Also, it's hard to overstate the rarity, and unpopularity, of actual Nazis in this country. The rally was originally planned to, as it said, "unite the right." Then the hardcore Nazis said they'd be coming, and suddenly everybody else remembered they had to be somewhere else that day. I know a lot of people can't distinguish between crazy anti-immigrant militias and crazy toss-Jews-in-ovens militias, because they're both horrible racists. But they themselves don't see it that way, and neither do many other people. Nobody. Likes. Nazis. When Trump said both sides were repellent, he was more or less speaking for his base, against a very, very small subset that tags along with his base and gets disproportionate attention on account of its sheer repulsiveness. He didn't want to attack his albatross because they liked him, and he's almost biologically incapable of going against somebody who flatters him. But he doesn't need the stupid Nazis to support him. All of America's Nazis, Klansmen, and affiliated scum put together wouldn't fill a stadium.

[Aeson]

You shouldn't just look at one poll. 538's tracking shows Trump is slowly losing support over time. It's a series of "straws that break a camel's back" in a heard of camel.

The business advisory panels were important to Trump. It's a symbol of his "business acumen" he was bringing to office. It was a place for powerful people to kiss Trump's ass in return for favors. Now those powerful ass kissers are denouncing Trump publicly. How is that a win for Trump?

Even Fox News is reporting that many in the Trump administration are frustrated with Trump over this. How is that a win for Trump?

There is no upside in this for Trump. There are obvious examples of people jumping ship over this. Trump clearly lost in this.

[Uncle Sparky]

The new NAFTA talks began this past week... with very little coverage in the US press. Canada and Mexico are America's 2nd & 3rd largest trading partners. The business advisory councils would have kept Trump from turning the US into a trade pariah state. As things currently stand, the congress and senate will block Trump's more egregious ideas, and Republican governors will block the most of the rest.
I think Trump has already jumped the shark... I wonder what will happen when Trump calls a press conference and no-one shows up?

[Aeson]

Also, it's hard to overstate the rarity, and unpopularity, of actual Nazis in this country. The rally was originally planned to, as it said, "unite the right." Then the hardcore Nazis said they'd be coming, and suddenly everybody else remembered they had to be somewhere else that day. I know a lot of people can't distinguish between crazy anti-immigrant militias and crazy toss-Jews-in-ovens militias, because they're both horrible racists. But they themselves don't see it that way, and neither do many other people. Nobody. Likes. Nazis. When Trump said both sides were repellent, he was more or less speaking for his base, against a very, very small subset that tags along with his base and gets disproportionate attention on account of its sheer repulsiveness. He didn't want to attack his albatross because they liked him, and he's almost biologically incapable of going against somebody who flatters him. But he doesn't need the stupid Nazis to support him. All of America's Nazis, Klansmen, and affiliated scum put together wouldn't fill a stadium.

You seem to be vastly downplaying the importance of White Nationalists and xenophobes in Trump's base. He won against a historically disliked candidate by a handful of votes in a handful of states while losing the popular vote. He needs all of those who voted for him and then some (if the democrats run someone without so much baggage). Trump himself said there were good people in with the Nazis, KKK, and White Nationalists who were demonstrating. Either they didn't all jump ship, or Trump is saying some of the Nazis, KKK, and White Nationalists are good people.

But more importantly, it's not the racists who are breaking with Trump about this ... it's business leaders. That was the part of his support and "entourage" that had the capability of helping him get things done.

[Jon Miller]

Look at Boston, that is how it should be (nazis et al overwelmed, pack up their bags and go home early).

JM

[Uncle Sparky]

Today in Vancouver, about a dozen anti-immigrant, pro fascists had a rally... A few of my friends counter protested... One wrote: "Love won before, it won today and it will continue to win. We outnumbered the alt-right rioters more than 100-1 and filled the space with peace, love, acceptance, compassion, listening and learning. Stand up. Shout out. Show up. Hatred, bigotry, fear-mongering and ignorance don't belong here or anywhere. Thank you, Vancouver!!"
Trump criticised the Boston counter-protest... old racist Uncle Donald is now irrelevant...

[Elok]

Look at Boston, that is how it should be (nazis et al overwelmed, pack up their bags and go home early).

JM

IIUC Boston's rally wasn't actually Nazis, they identify as civic nationalists. Still pretty far right, but hardly Nazis.

EDIT: https://www.vox.com/2017/8/19/161738...size-august-19

The opening ceremony (including moment of silence for Heather Heyer) was performed by hippie priestesses who blew pot smoke out of shofars. Racism and weapons were explicitly banned by the organizers. They complied entirely with police, attacked nobody. Still had ignorant shipdits screaming "FASCIST" at them. Had to be escorted by police to even reach the stage. I guess you can say they were "Nazis" in the sense that some of the people on the stage were known to have ugly views (which they were strongly discouraged from voicing, and apparently none of them did).

[Elok]

Going by 538's chart, Trump has lost an average of less than a percentage point per month. It's dropped about one point since May. It's actually more than a point higher now than it was on the seventh, so I don't think he's been roughed up all that badly by C-ville in that respect. Basically everybody in the White House has been expressing unhappiness with Trump from the start of the year on. His administration is a rolling CF, hemorrhaging staffers. There's a scandal literally every week. I don't see this as distinguishable from background noise.

[Aeson]

If it were indistinguishable ... we'd still have the business councils.

[Cort Haus]

I'm in several Virginia-related gun groups on FB(or at least I was until FB started racking down). The number of Virginia LEOs who say really ****ty things about minorities and people to the left of them(which is not the same thing as "liberal" or "leftist") I see is amazing.

There really is no doubt in my mind that the VSP wasn't in the mood to put the damper on groups that the rank and file may have sympathized with. Our governor decided to blame the whole thing on:

(1)The ACLU and

(2)The protestors being "more heavily armed" than the police with "80% of them having semiautomatic weapons"(the percentage being clearly false to anyone who looked at photos of the protestors). He was acting as if the VSP were armed with ****in' SAA revolvers and lever-actions or something. He also claimed that the alt-reich protestors had weapons caches all over town, the head of the VSP disputed that claim.

Rather than address the severe systemic problem of the VSP being racist cowards with MRAPs and machine guns, he decided to push his anti-RKBA agenda and also blame the ACLU.

Acronym soup alert! Any chance of a glossary?