Complex Un/Sub-Conscious Planning

[Kidlicious]

The example about blind people actually is a false analogy.
It is clear that, of course, you have to possess the necesssary sensory perceptive capabilities in order to react to perceptions of this sensory input

Actually there is a joke among biologsts about similar false analogies:

A biologist researches the ability of cockroaches to sense wind puffs (which they can via the cerci at their backside).
1. Cockroach with 6 intact legs flees from windpuff. Ability to sense wind puffs present
2. (after removal of 2 legs) Cockroach with 4 intact legs flees from wind puffs. Ability to sense wind puffs present
3. (after removal of another pair of legs) Cockroach with 2 intact legs flees from wind puffs. Ability to sense wind puffs present
4. (after removal of the last pair of legs) Cockroach with 0 intact legs doesn't flee from wind puffs. Ability to sense wind puffs not present

Conclusion:
After removal of all legs, the cockroach loses its ability to sense wind puffs

(which, of course, is a false analogy, as it just loses its abiility to react on those wind puffs)


Regarding higher primates there are actually many many more evidences that point at self awareness (and awareness of others), especially from research on Kanzi and Koko.

For example Koko, when she was informed that her pet cat had been hit by a car and died, expressed sadness.
On another occasion Kokos caregiver came late to an appointed session. When Koko expressed anger/sadness about her being late she explained to Koko, that she was late because she was at a Doctor and got informed that she is pregnant. When informed about this, Koko expressed joy for her custodian and understanding abut her state.

These things (and many others) don't seem possible to me without a degree of self awareeness and awareness of (the inner state) of others.

So, for me, there isn't much doubt that humans aren't the only higher primates, who possess self awareness

The point wasn't that apes aren't self-aware. It's that we know little about their thinking. In fact, we don't know all that much about human thinking. But we know more than we know about the way apes think. When you see an ape looking in the mirror you think it's because they think like a human, but you don't know that. You don't know what they are thinking.

[Proteus_MST]

The point wasn't that apes aren't self-aware. It's that we know little about their thinking. In fact, we don't know all that much about human thinking. But we know more than we know about the way apes think. When you see an ape looking in the mirror you think it's because they think like a human, but you don't know that. You don't know what they are thinking.

Actually we don't even know what other humans are thinking when they look into the mirror. We just can assume it because of observations and maybe due to commnication via language.
(And actually this communication via language is, what makes the research on Kanzi, Koko and the other talking apes so interesting and precious. It gives us a certain way to communicate with them and gain insight into theeir inner states of mind (and actually, at least Kanzi, is known to also teach his siblings the form of ASL which he has learned ... and they even sometimes seem to use it to communicate between each other, thereby perhaps giving us anther generation of "talking" Bonobos, which finally may even be better capable of communicating with humans))

[Kidlicious]

There are many primates who fast for spiritual reaons. But I guess all of them belong to the genug Homo sapiens sapiens.

But more exactly:
As I said, one interesting difference between humans and otheer primates seems to be, that non-human primates don't seem to possess the desire to autonomously ask questions.

And actually this (the curiosity/desire to ask questions) is, what actually started the whole spirituality/religion business in humans.
Humans saw a Flash in the sky ... and suddenly a tree was on fire ... they wondered why and came to the conclusion that there must be some invisible/divine persona that is responsible for lightnings (and may have to be satisfied via sacrifices in order to not hit the camp of the humans)

From simple questions like those, the whole "cultural evolution" of humans started and finally led to society as we know


With the lack of curiosity/desire to ask questions on their own, it seems like other primates seem to lack the ignition spark that could start such a cultural revolution on their own

I think a simpler way to put it is that humans use reason to indicate that God or gods must exist, because someone must have created everything. When bad things happen they wonder why God did that or why he let that happen.

Now, there will be others who say things like, "God is evil," or "God is dead." Since no one can be certain of either, there is doubt in people's mind.

But apes are not capable of this kind of thinking, and you have not demonstrated that they are.