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  • Complex Un/Sub-Conscious Planning

    I'm not up on the distinction between unconscious and subconscious and I don't think it really matters for what I'm talking about. Anyway, we often talk about humans having complex, non-conscious motivations. I want to distinguish this from having multiple, conflicting motivations that give rise to complex behavior. For example, a person may value both intimacy and privacy, and these sometimes conflicting values will give rise to weird, possibly inconsistent behavior. I'm not talking about this.

    Instead, I'm talking about scenarios in which we imply that a non-conscious aspect of the human brain can make long-term plans. A good example of where we talk this way is in "self-sabotaging behavior." For example, we might look at a person and conclude that they have commitment issues, and that their commitment issues explain why they engage in destructive behaviors in relationships. They sabotage relationships before they get to the commitment stage, thus protecting the individual from having to confront their commitment issues. Or something like this.

    Now the thing is, when we make such a claim about a person, we're not suggesting that they sit down at night and write out a five step plan for how to sabotage their relationship in order to avoid commitment issues. Instead, we're suggesting that some non-conscious process is at work.

    So my question is, do we really think such a mechanism exists in the human brain? Do we come up with complex, non-conscious plans? If so, what form do these plans take? Are there thoughts we are simply not conscious of that explicitly construct these plans? Is it something less tangible than thinking, such as symbolic representations of concepts encoded in neurons/synapses/other brain structures that still explicitly enact plans? Or is non-conscious planning more the result of having a brain that takes in some inputs, associates them with a particular class of problems, stirs them around for a bit, and then spits out a solution? All the stirring is just having a complex brain that responds mechanistically to inputs, but at no level could we point to a process in the brain and say, "Here are steps 1, 2, and 3 of the plan being made."

    In that last case, I think it's still reasonable to say that the brain decided on the best course of action to achieve a particular aim, but not by spelling out a plan. I want to distinguish this from a final possibility, which is that at no point in the stirring is the brain trying to solve or optimize for a particular situation that it has identified. Instead, the brain is just reacting to inputs as a giant machine and cranking out behaviors. Because brains also have conscious thoughts that can create structured plans (and a theory of mind), we might look at another person and assign agency (planning) to behaviors that are instead merely machinery (when conscious planning is not involved).

    I'm not sure where I stand on this, and I think the argument could definitely be made that some of the scenarios I've described are "really" the same thing on some level. Thoughts? Monkeys.
    Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
    "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

  • #2
    We do not come up with complex, non-conscious plans. We merely delude ourselves with respect to the factors involved in our simple, immediate plans.
    “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

    ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

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    • #3
      Do you have any evidence for this kind of thinking? It's possible that this double-mindedness is 100% conscious and the person is just trying to make you think that their thinking is subconscious.
      I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
      - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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      • #4
        We do many things without really thinking about them, we just do them knowing that it's what needs to be done.
        So everything we do is what we really want to do, we just sometimes don't think about it but would most likely do it even if we analyzed it.
        I'll admit that we do some things by mistake.
        It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
        RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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        • #5
          Multiple personality disorder, inspiration, hypnotism ... all suggest the mind is capable of very complex planning outside of current consciousness.

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          • #6
            If we assume that we don't have some kind of metaphysical soul that does the thinkng (and isn't dependant on the physical processes),
            then it actually doesn't matter at all whetehr or not our complex planning happens subconsciously or consciously.

            If all our thinking is done by the complex neural network that is our brain, then there is no reason to assume that our subconscious processes wouldn't be able to come up with complex plans ... after all, both, our subconscious thinking, as well as our conscious thinking rests on the same (complex) neurochemical kinds of pathways
            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve."
            Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Aeson View Post
              Multiple personality disorder, inspiration, hypnotism ... all suggest the mind is capable of very complex planning outside of current consciousness.
              I think the opposite is true. If planning can be done in the subconscious we may not have cases of multiple personality disorder.

              With inspiration I'm not sure what you're getting at. Being inspired means that you consciously plan, no?

              Hypnosis is used to heal specifically because of the inadequacy of our subconscious mind.
              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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              • #8
                Originally posted by pchang View Post
                We do not come up with complex, non-conscious plans. We merely delude ourselves with respect to the factors involved in our simple, immediate plans.
                How does this jive with something like chess? If you ask the best chess players in the world about how they decide on moves, they don't tell you that they think 17 steps ahead. Instead, it appears that the best chess players rely at least to some degree on intuition (built up from study, thousands of games played, and observation) to get them to the right move. But what is the shape of the non-conscious cognitive process that results in good intuition? Is it planning? Or just a dressed up neural net with no deeper understanding built into it?
                Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Proteus_MST View Post
                  If we assume that we don't have some kind of metaphysical soul that does the thinkng (and isn't dependant on the physical processes),
                  then it actually doesn't matter at all whetehr or not our complex planning happens subconsciously or consciously.

                  If all our thinking is done by the complex neural network that is our brain, then there is no reason to assume that our subconscious processes wouldn't be able to come up with complex plans ... after all, both, our subconscious thinking, as well as our conscious thinking rests on the same (complex) neurochemical kinds of pathways
                  If it's true that complex plans can be developed consciously and non-consciously, why are any of our plans developed consciously? That is, what benefit does conscious thinking confer that improves fitness?
                  Click here if you're having trouble sleeping.
                  "We confess our little faults to persuade people that we have no large ones." - François de La Rochefoucauld

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kidicious View Post
                    I think the opposite is true. If planning can be done in the subconscious we may not have cases of multiple personality disorder.
                    The various personalities are not aware of what the others are doing, each is it's own independent (from it's view) consciousness. This means that the mind can do very complex things that a specific conscious portion of the mind is not aware of.

                    With inspiration I'm not sure what you're getting at. Being inspired means that you consciously plan, no?
                    I'm talking about Eureka type moments. Often they happen when you've been working hard on a problem ... then take some time off. Your subconscious keeps working on the problem and then in a moment of inspiration your consciousness receives the outcome of that work without having to have consciously done it.

                    Hypnosis is used to heal specifically because of the inadequacy of our subconscious mind.
                    But it requires that the subconscious mind is actually driving important things in our lives. If it weren't of importance, there would be no point to try to address it through hypnosis.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Lorizael View Post

                      If it's true that complex plans can be developed consciously and non-consciously, why are any of our plans developed consciously? That is, what benefit does conscious thinking confer that improves fitness?
                      I would say the importance is that conscious plans make it "mine". There's evidence that people presented with the same option will be more likely to act it out if they feel it is their own idea rather than if they view it as being someone else's idea.

                      Also, more neurons involved. If there are areas of the mind that are conscious and those that are subconscious, then having them both work on problems just gives more computation power.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Aeson View Post

                        The various personalities are not aware of what the others are doing, each is it's own independent (from it's view) consciousness. This means that the mind can do very complex things that a specific conscious portion of the mind is not aware of.



                        I'm talking about Eureka type moments. Often they happen when you've been working hard on a problem ... then take some time off. Your subconscious keeps working on the problem and then in a moment of inspiration your consciousness receives the outcome of that work without having to have consciously done it.



                        But it requires that the subconscious mind is actually driving important things in our lives. If it weren't of importance, there would be no point to try to address it through hypnosis.
                        I suppose you're right. Now that I think about it I have some experience that shows that this might be true. Creepy.
                        I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                        - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                        • #13
                          Yes I think there are subconcious thoughts and patterns and obstacles.

                          Just as there could be subcinscious and very potent motivators to do something, without the person even realizing his subconscious is working full time on this, there also are subconscious obstacles.

                          These most often than not manifest in analogy projections. Something that you don't even realize it's bothering you is manifesting in similar schemes in your outside reality and then you tend to avoid it.

                          If you realize what it is you're objecting/avoiding is within yourself (you bring it to the surface and see it) then you won't be avoiding it in the outside reality either. Or you might even know why your self is acting the way it does and accomodate yourself in a way that it doesn't obstact you or that you harvest benefits


                          know thyself as someone used to say

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                          • #14
                            If the subconscious can plan, and affect your life, but your conscious is not even aware of this planning then it is not you. It is independent of you.

                            I still think it is very limited though. I think it is dependent on you (conscious) because of its limitations.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

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                            • #15
                              I would say it can't really be independent of you because it was formed from your personal experiences. Where else could it have come from?
                              It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                              RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

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