Complex Un/Sub-Conscious Planning

[Kidlicious]

I would say it can't really be independent of you because it was formed from your personal experiences. Where else could it have come from?

You're assuming that it can learn. I don't think it can. I think it's reptilian.

[Lorizael]

We observe learning in basically every animal.

[Kidlicious]

We observe learning in basically every animal.

Reptiles have almost no ability to learn. Less intelligent mammals have more, but they aren't able to use reason like we do.

[Proteus_MST]

Reptiles have almost no ability to learn. Less intelligent mammals have more, but they aren't able to use reason like we do.

Don't underestimate reptiles

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/09/140930090443.htm

[Kidlicious]

My point is that the subconscious may have it's own values, produced by a different kind of thinking. That could be why we see double-thinking. But maybe it's not double-thinking at all. Maybe some people's subconscious mind is stronger than their conscious mind.

[Proteus_MST]

Well, several researchers in neurobiology adhere to the theory, that it actually it is our subconscious mind which dos the thinking ...
and that our conscious mind just has the illusion that it does things consciously.

At least for simple actions there actually have been experiments whose outcomes strongly suggest, that the fiiring of the neural correlates for this action actually takes place before we actually consciously (believe to) decide to take this action (and so, simple actions actually rather are subconsciously decided and not consciously)
(a good example from everydays lif would also be Hypnotizers who make people do certain actions ... annd the stories the brain of these people "invents" in order to make it appear as if those actions (which were implanted by the hypnotizer) actually were conscious decisions by that person)

For complex actions/planning there still is a lack of experiments in order to shed a light on how much of it may be conscious and how much subconscious

[Kidlicious]

Well, several researchers in neurobiology adhere to the theory, that it actually it is our subconscious mind which dos the thinking ...
and that our conscious mind just has the illusion that it does things consciously.

At least for simple actions there actually have been experiments whose outcomes strongly suggest, that the fiiring of the neural correlates for this action actually takes place before we actually consciously (believe to) decide to take this action (and so, simple actions actually rather are subconsciously decided and not consciously)
(a good example from everydays lif would also be Hypnotizers who make people do certain actions ... annd the stories the brain of these people "invents" in order to make it appear as if those actions (which were implanted by the hypnotizer) actually were conscious decisions by that person)

For complex actions/planning there still is a lack of experiments in order to shed a light on how much of it may be conscious and how much subconscious

The obvious problem with that is that humans tend to make different kinds of decisions than less intelligent animals do who biologists say aren't as evolved.

Do you have links?

[Proteus_MST]

The obvious problem with that is that humans tend to make different kinds of decisions than less intelligent animals do who biologists say aren't as evolved.

Do you have links?

This paper review is a nice overview over the different schools of neuroscience regarding free will and also lists the experiment I referred to (about the subconscious correlates firing before the conscious decision):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887467/

It actually seems like there are new experiments that indicate that actually there is some kind of conscious control, for example with regards to stop subconsciously started movement

[Kidlicious]

IDK where free will comes into this. The idea that our subconscious causes us all to have delusions is very problematic. It would mean that we're all crazy, in effect.

Consider Lori's example which I think we can all agree is kind of common thinking. To say that that's all a delusion is a little absurd. Why would the subconscious cause that delusion?

[BlackCat]

Consciously made decisions could actually be unconsciously made decisions :

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080414145705.htm

[Kidlicious]

This paper review is a nice overview over the different schools of neuroscience regarding free will and also lists the experiment I referred to (about the subconscious correlates firing before the conscious decision):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4887467/

It actually seems like there are new experiments that indicate that actually there is some kind of conscious control, for example with regards to stop subconsciously started movement

Consider one experiment that he talks about. Children were given the choice of whether to eat one marshmallow immediately or wait and eat two marshmallows later. One thing that could be mentioned is that it's possible that some of the children that chose to eat the marshmallow immediately regretted their decision while they were eating. So they actually consciously decided that they made the wrong decision.

Your dragons can not reason like that because they lack a conscious mind. Something to think about.

[Proteus_MST]

Consider one experiment that he talks about. Children were given the choice of whether to eat one marshmallow immediately or wait and eat two marshmallows later. One thing that could be mentioned is that it's possible that some of the children that chose to eat the marshmallow immediately regretted their decision while they were eating. So they actually consciously decided that they made the wrong decision.

Your dragons can not reason like that because they lack a conscious mind. Something to think about.

Had you read the passages more carefully, you would have noticed that the paper about the Marshmallow experiment isn't about free will.
It is about gratification delay (and for these experiments it doesn't matter whether or not any of the kids regret their decision or not ... it only matters whether they can withstand the pressure (of taking the immediate reward instead of waiting for a future greater reward) or not). The paper of the Marshmallow experiment doesn't make any hypothesis about the existence or not existence of a free will (which is no surprise, considering that it was from 1972)
The reason the author (of my linked article) mentions those experiments is, because he also details the framework in which the actual free will research is embedded.

[Elok]

I think the more relevant factor is whether or not those children grow up in households where adults can be trusted to keep their promises. Though that is probably related to the ability to delay gratification in its own right.

[Kidlicious]

Had you read the passages more carefully, you would have noticed that the paper about the Marshmallow experiment isn't about free will.
It is about gratification delay (and for these experiments it doesn't matter whether or not any of the kids regret their decision or not ... it only matters whether they can withstand the pressure (of taking the immediate reward instead of waiting for a future greater reward) or not). The paper of the Marshmallow experiment doesn't make any hypothesis about the existence or not existence of a free will (which is no surprise, considering that it was from 1972)
The reason the author (of my linked article) mentions those experiments is, because he also details the framework in which the actual free will research is embedded.

I didn't claim or assume that the marshmallow experiment was about free will.

[Proteus_MST]

I didn't claim or assume that the marshmallow experiment was about free will.

You claimed, however, that it was about concious vs. subconcious decisions:

... So they actually consciously decided that they made the wrong decision.

Which it wasn't about. Whether the children decided consciously or subconsciously to eat the first Marshmallow didn't play a role in the experiment.
Nor didit matter whether or not they regretted their action ... the only thing that mattered was, whether they withstood the pressure of instant gratification or not

[Kidlicious]

You claimed, however, that it was about concious vs. subconcious decisions:



Which it wasn't about. Whether the children decided consciously or subconsciously to eat the first Marshmallow didn't play a role in the experiment.
Nor didit matter whether or not they regretted their action ... the only thing that mattered was, whether they withstood the pressure of instant gratification or not

And I gave a reason, which you ignore. Again, lizards don't think like that.