Why are the betting markets...

[Giancarlo]

Actually the main reason it passed was very similar to the reason the Democratic party don't win white male working class voters much anymore. A huge number of working class people experienced their economic position growing increasingly worse over many years while the party of the left became more and more distant and focused on social issues rather than economic ones. This combined with one of the UK's favourite political games over the last 30 years of 'Blame the EU for everything' meant that when it finally came to a vote things went terribly wrong.

The Democratic Party does win enough white voters and will in the next election. Their fears are actually based more on Muslims and that is what happened here. Pretty sad for a nation who saw the election of a Muslim in London. I'm not buying your reasoning though. Brexit was a Trump peddled pile of crap and will only make their situation far worse.

It's fine me though, because California will soon surpass the UK when it comes to the GDP.

You probably give away a lot more about where you stand than you think you do. Even your vocal support for Hillary (and the reasons you give) strongly limits the potential range of where you probably stand on the political spectrum.

Again you're not in a position of any credibility to make such a statement.

I like Biden more. My support of Hillary more has to do with being pragmatic and compromise. You don't seem to read that well. Perhaps there has been too much austerity in your country.

Again, you're repeating something that is incorrect. We are to the left of some countries and to the right of others. If you genuinely don't know that, then try getting on a plane to Hungary sometime and report back on their practically fascist ruling party.

I'm clearly not. I'm absolutely right. The UK is one of the most right wing countries in all of Europe. Perhaps right up there with Italy.

By the way, I'm a genderbending environmental activist who wants to see incredibly strong regulation on the economy and tough sanctions on companies that pollute. I also believe in nationalization in some cases if required.

[kentonio]

The Democratic Party does win enough white voters and will in the next election. Their fears are actually based more on Muslims and that is what happened here. Pretty sad for a nation who saw the election of a Muslim in London. I'm not buying your reasoning though. Brexit was a Trump peddled pile of crap and will only make their situation far worse.

It's fine me though, because California will soon surpass the UK when it comes to the GDP.

White working class voters skew overwhelmingly Republican. Which logically makes no sense considering the economic policies of the two parties. If you can't be bothered to delve into why that might be (or just want to fall back on the idiotic 'poor whites must just be racists' then you're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

As for your 'views' on Brexit, you're missing a very large part of the puzzle. Then again almost everyone underestimated the size of the problem there too before the vote.

Again you're not in a position of any credibility to make such a statement.

I like Biden more. My support of Hillary more has to do with being pragmatic and compromise. You don't seem to read that well. Perhaps there has been too much austerity in your country.

Why would you think supporting Joe Biden more made you look any more left wing, let alone hard left? Again, if you want to claim to be hard left, then give me a position you support that is actually hard left. Why would that be difficult?

I'm clearly not. I'm absolutely right. The UK is one of the most right wing countries in all of Europe. Perhaps right up there with Italy.

You seem to frequently fall into the trap of thinking that something becomes true and proven by you simply saying 'I'm right'. That's really not how debate works. As with most things, the political spectrum across Europe is not black and white, but rather a large array of greys. Take France where I live for instance, they are nowadays economically to the left of the UK (although that probably wasn't true as recently as the 70's), yet socially they are still to the right of Britain. Their attitudes towards women for instance are probably roughly comparable to the UK in the 90's. Meanwhile in Eastern Europe several countries now have hard right governments that make anything in the UK, France or Germany look far to the left.

[Giancarlo]

White working class voters skew overwhelmingly Republican. Which logically makes no sense considering the economic policies of the two parties. If you can't be bothered to delve into why that might be (or just want to fall back on the idiotic 'poor whites must just be racists' then you're not nearly as smart as you think you are.

Well, the more educated skew democrat, and democrat still manages to get a big chunk of white voters overall. Plus, women tend to go more democrat (even married women). I was talking about white people overall. The rest of your sentence is total bull**** and I never said that.

As for your 'views' on Brexit, you're missing a very large part of the puzzle. Then again almost everyone underestimated the size of the problem there too before the vote.

Brexit was one based on fear and Trump-esque populism. Look at the prominent leaders who backed it (many of them have been favorable towards Trump). Your nation should be ashamed of itself for embracing Trump. Brexit will make economic circumstances even worse.

Why would you think supporting Joe Biden more made you look any more left wing, let alone hard left? Again, if you want to claim to bbe hard left, then give me a position you support that is actually hard left. Why would that be difficult?

I'm pragmatic. I'll support whoever is best in this country, while understanding they are at best centrist. There is no real left wing in America. Grow up please. You again aren't in any position in speaking for me. So I ask you kindly to stop.

You seem to frequently fall into the trap of thinking that something becomes true and proven by you simply saying 'I'm right'. That's really not how debate works. As with most things, the political spectrum across Europe is not black and white, but rather a large array of greys. Take France where I live for instance, they are nowadays economically to the left of the UK (although that probably wasn't true as recently as the 70's), yet socially they are still to the right of Britain. Their attitudes towards women for instance are probably roughly comparable to the UK in the 90's. Meanwhile in Eastern Europe several countries now have hard right governments that make anything in the UK, France or Germany look far to the left.

You're doing the same stupid thing and you're trying to speak for me and telling me what I think. You don't know how to debate and you're utterly incapable of debate. You've already proved it by making stupid blanket statements about how I think. I was talking about Western Europe. The UK basically destroys any of those "Pro-feminist" views with their common and latent xenophobia (which is far worse than what is in France).

And it doesn't surprise me you ignored a key statement I made:

"By the way, I'm a genderbending environmental activist who wants to see incredibly strong regulation on the economy and tough sanctions on companies that pollute. I also believe in nationalization in some cases if required. "

[Giancarlo]

I need to apologize if I came off as too harsh and abrasive. I ought to employ my passion a bit more constructively. My intention is not to offend and I only speak from my own perspective. Perspectives shape us and who we are. I have had a difficult time in my life coming to grips with who I am and still am far from perfect. I am still discovering myself as a person. This is what makes us human. Again, I apologize if I was in any way offensive.

Anyways, I won't be able to post as much this upcoming week because work is going to be superbusy. So have a great week

[kentonio]

Well, the more educated skew democrat, and democrat still manages to get a big chunk of white voters overall. Plus, women tend to go more democrat (even married women). I was talking about white people overall.

Actually as recently as 2012 (I don't have time right now to dig for more recent polling, feel free to do so if you think its changed since) white working class women polled 47-44 to the GOP. Now that really is something that should disturb you.

The rest of your sentence is total bull**** and I never said that.

Actually you said basically exactly that some days ago, but I'll let it go.

Brexit was one based on fear and Trump-esque populism. Look at the prominent leaders who backed it (many of them have been favorable towards Trump). Your nation should be ashamed of itself for embracing Trump. Brexit will make economic circumstances even worse.

You're using a very simplistic and not particularly well informed version of events. If you wanted to see the true story, you'd look at the changing political scene in Labour heartlands over the last 20 years or so, and see a very clear correlation between previously strong Labour supporters and Leave voters. Like almost every election, Brexit was decided on economics, unfortunately the poorly informed British electorate believed too many of the lies they'd been told by politicians and the media for decades and voted for something that will almost certainly hurt them very badly.

I'm pragmatic. I'll support whoever is best in this country, while understanding they are at best centrist. There is no real left wing in America. Grow up please. You again aren't in any position in speaking for me. So I ask you kindly to stop.

If you want to post whatever you like while never being challenged on it, you really have come to the wrong place. Put your victim card away and toughen up.

You're doing the same stupid thing and you're trying to speak for me and telling me what I think. You don't know how to debate and you're utterly incapable of debate. You've already proved it by making stupid blanket statements about how I think. I was talking about Western Europe. The UK basically destroys any of those "Pro-feminist" views with their common and latent xenophobia (which is far worse than what is in France).

Ah so you've now decided to reframe the debate from 'Europe' to 'Western Europe' because your original claims were absolutely false? Is that a recognized debating tactic where you are? As for xenophobia, there are very significant numbers of xenophobic people in the UK, and not a few racists too. Then again there is also a very real and strong current of xenophobia in France too, which manifests itself very clearly in the immigrant ghettos (and they really are like ghettos in many cases) in the suburbs of most of the major French cities, and the attitudes of the French generally towards the people who live in them. Of course you could just skip all that and instead just look at the large (and increased) support for Le Pen and his hard right National Front party.

And it doesn't surprise me you ignored a key statement I made:

"By the way, I'm a genderbending environmental activist who wants to see incredibly strong regulation on the economy and tough sanctions on companies that pollute. I also believe in nationalization in some cases if required. "

So still quite far to the right of c0ckney then, but support for nationalization does put you a decent way to the left. See, how hard was that really?

[Giancarlo]

I am not going to respond to that. I ask you to stop making a determination of where I stand politically. Only I will do that. Your criticisms are weak and ineffectual at best. I will leave it at that.

[kentonio]

That's ok, in debating terms we call that conceding.

[Giancarlo]

That's ok, in debating terms we call that conceding.

Why don't you concede defeat? You didn't actually debunk anything I said.

As I said, you are not in any position to determine where I stand and I will not entertain anymore of your blatantly false statements. Please, if you are going to debate, at least try using some factual statements.

And what victim card?

You need to take a step back from the personal insults. They do absolutely nothing for your argument.

[Dinner]

I would still like to hear a position you hold that is "hard left".

[Giancarlo]

I would still like to hear a position you hold that is "hard left".

And why should I bother with someone who is quite right wing anyways and was complaining about freeloaders?

Evidence is sorely lacking in your argument.

By the way, I already brought up several viewpoints that are.

[kentonio]

Why don't you concede defeat? You didn't actually debunk anything I said.

You mean apart from the almost countless points I raised which directly debunked what you said, and which you didn't bother to respond to because your only position is 'you are wrong'?

If you want a very clear and simple debunking of your mistakes about xenophobia in Europe consider this: In the UK we have a party, UKIP which are the natural home for xenophobic voters. They poll currently at around 13% nationally. The highest vote total they have ever recieved was 27.5% for a European election (their single strongest issue) which traditionally have extremely low turnouts in the country. France has its own xenophobic hard right party in the National Front. The NF leader last month polled at 7 points clear for the Presidential election next year.

As I said, you are not in any position to determine where I stand and I will not entertain anymore of your blatantly false statements. Please, if you are going to debate, at least try using some factual statements.

If you're going to make claims about other people's political positions (calling c0ckney a reactionary and not real left wing springs to mind) then you can expect to be called on your own position. Same as when you run around insulting everyone, you can probably expect their language back to you to be less than polite.

[kentonio]

I would still like to hear a position you hold that is "hard left".

To be fair, if he believes in nationalization of certain industries, that is a pretty respectably left wing position.

[Giancarlo]

And the falsehoods continue...

He continues to post more lies about what l believe. I guarantee you I am more left wing then cockney and no conservative will tell me otherwise. Called out? My goodness... You need to actually use facts to call someone out. Your argument is really poor and you didn't actually debunk anything I have said.

I didn't insult either.

[kentonio]

Yet again you've accused me of not using facts, immediately after I've just posted yet another set of verifiable facts. You have the intellectual dishonesty of BK and the debating skills of MrFun. Grow up and stop whining ffs.

[C0ckney]

do you remember fez from back in the day? he's always been like this. he makes absurd statements, doubles down on them and get laughed at by one and all. here's a typical thread from his post-fascist period (the fascist ones were often funnier still).

Libertarianism is foolishness.. it is communism in disguise.