Pope: Catholics should ask gay people for forgiveness

[Elok]

Increasingly, there is no single "real world." There are two worlds, and they're being prepped to live in the one of their parents' choosing. Conservatives have been building their parallel society for some time, and I think that society is only going to become more robust and self-supporting for the foreseeable future, somewhat ironically with help from the internet and other modern tools. The government can attempt to sabotage it, but I really don't believe they'll succeed.

Where that leaves my family, I don't know. I don't belong ideologically in either camp, but the conservative one has fewer morbid tendencies; they're at least trying to preserve family structure in the face of decadence. And the subculture (or rather alternative culture, at this point) is shifting, surprisingly rapidly, to become more inclusive. It wasn't that long ago that Catholics wouldn't have been at all welcome in that scene. Now conservative Catholics are an integral part of its structure. The future will be . . . interesting.

[rah]

Yes, that is a better compromise but (in my opinion) it still falls short. Of course this is based on my experience with comparing my friends that were home schooled and those that weren't. But I'm sure things are probably a bit different now.

[Jon Miller]

I am guessing that there are more than 2 worlds.

JM

[Lorizael]

"Indoctrination" is when children learn values we disagree with.

I don't buy this. There's probably a minimum amount of indoctrination that is required for child-rearing (don't hit your brother, put your pants on, say you're sorry, share your toys), but I think that higher level values can be passed on in ways that don't resemble indoctrination. That is, we can make children fear the consequences of not upholding particular values (indoctrination), or we can teach children to reason their way to a set of values (which might be intellectually dishonest but at least doesn't involve threats and fear), or we can teach children to be curious and thoughtful about the world (which might lead to anarchy and nihilism, but I think that's a small price to pay for being right).

Now, you might argue that in order to get children to value reason or curiosity, you have to "indoctrinate" those values into them, which will involve the same lamentable processes you wanted to avoid in the first place. But I don't know that that's true, because my understanding is that a good chunk of how children get socialized comes from observation and example rather than explicit instruction. So it might be possible. Of course, I'm not a parent and have structured my entire life around not being one, so monkeys.

[Elok]

Children have to have a conscience force-fed into them like foie gras geese. As toddlers, they are not quite completely amoral; they have some social and altruistic instincts, but these are helpless before their overwhelming self-centeredness. They also absorb a good deal passively, yes, but that cuts both ways. Kids from evangelical families generally get their higher values much the same as kids from secular families, by aping mommy and daddy and sundry siblings. If a particular family is tying its kids to chairs and making them watch Veggietales with their eyelids peeled back Clockwork Orange style, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's abusive.

[rah]

Can teaching them to reason replace force-feeding a conscience. Most morality is based on what is good for the majority and there is a specific benefit in living in a moral society.

[Lorizael]

If a particular family is tying its kids to chairs and making them watch Veggietales with their eyelids peeled back Clockwork Orange style, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's abusive.

I think there are more subtle forms of indoctrination that can negatively affect children. For example, a father might want his daughter to dress modestly. This can be done through example, or through exploring fashion with the daughter, or through calling scantily clad women whores.

[Jon Miller]

But she is being told to dress 'immodestly' by other parts of the culture. How is that any less indoctrination?

What is the 'natural' way to dress?

JM

[Jon Miller]

Can teaching them to reason replace force-feeding a conscience. Most morality is based on what is good for the majority and there is a specific benefit in living in a moral society.

You are still teaching them something, that is the point. You can teach reason and western-christian values, you can teach reason and indian-hindu values, you can teach reason and XXXX. You can also not teach anti-reason. But the point is that you are always teaching (or allowing teaching).

What goes by the name of 'reason' in western society is generally western secular humanism which is a particular value set that is not necessarily more reasonable then eastern or indian or chinese value sets or even (some forms) of western christian or western islam or etc but excludes them all.

JM

[Lorizael]

But she is being told to dress 'immodestly' by other parts of the culture. How is that any less indoctrination?

If other elements of our society tell a person that dressing a particular way makes them a prude, or stuffy, or boring, then that would be the same kind of negative influence.

What is the 'natural' way to dress?

There is, of course, no natural way to dress. My point was that you can influence the way your daughter dresses without resorting to name-calling and shaming and moral judgments.

[Elok]

Can teaching them to reason replace force-feeding a conscience. Most morality is based on what is good for the majority and there is a specific benefit in living in a moral society.

At what age? You can't tell a three- or four-year old, "would you like it if brother did that to you?" First because he doesn't have the capacity for reasoning things out at that level, and second because he knows damn well that he's bigger than brother and the tables will not be turned for the foreseeable future, or at least as far along the future as he can comprehend. The higher rules of reasoning have to wait until the child has grown into reason and acquired a steady bedrock of purely habitual social behavior. My boy knows the ostensible rule for not stealing brother's toys, but his real reason at this point is because he has learned it consistently leads to him being made to give the toy back and apologize. Or going to the corner if he insists on being a horse's ass about it.

[Jon Miller]

Reasoning secular Indians or Chinese (so I am even keeping it independent of Religion) have radically different value sets than the 'Reason' community in the US or Europe.

And even the US or Europe may have radically different value sets under 'Reason', see

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/29/12051872/reason-rally

JM

[Jon Miller]

There is, of course, no natural way to dress. My point was that you can influence the way your daughter dresses without resorting to name-calling and shaming and moral judgments.

The anti shame and moral judgements value is one of the strongest values in the West.

Most of the rest of the world, and portions even in the West, strongly disagree with this value.

See http://www.vox.com/2016/6/30/1205537...dead-hypocrisy also

JM

[Lorizael]

There's a good deal of evidence from research in psychology that shame is a particularly damaging emotion and that we would be wise to dole it out carefully or not at all.

[Proteus_MST]

You are still teaching them something, that is the point. You can teach reason and western-christian values, you can teach reason and indian-hindu values, you can teach reason and XXXX. You can also not teach anti-reason. But the point is that you are always teaching (or allowing teaching).

What goes by the name of 'reason' in western society is generally western secular humanism which is a particular value set that is not necessarily more reasonable then eastern or indian or chinese value sets or even (some forms) of western christian or western islam or etc but excludes them all.

JM

That's the advantage of public schools (over homeschooling) ...
in them pupils may come into contact with people from other backgrounds (like asian or muslim)
and therefore have not only people of his own families cultural background around,
resulting in a broadened horizon over someone who only got told by his parents about other cultures