The Prophecy

[ZEE]

That's something that old people say.

[Bereta_Eder]

AAHz don't go after rah, he's cool.

This is PAIKTIS speaking

[ZEE]

wonder where you got that song from?

and Rah goes after me as much as i go after him. Poly tradition.

[Bereta_Eder]

[ZEE]

also I noticed that song is an extended version of the one that I have. Good find.

[korn469]

To be slightly contrarian yes the Middle East is a war ravaged hell hole and it seems that many people there are anti-American/anti-western, Islamic radicals and in no way do I think that the trillions of dollars spent on Iraq was worth it, but is it really that much worse than it was in 2003? (or 1993? or 1983? or 1973? or 1963? or 1953?)

Parts of Iraq that are under governmental control have a nominally democratic government instead of a totalitarian dictatorship. Iraq and Iran are on better terms now than they've been since maybe 1978 before the Iranian revolution. Relations between Iraq and Kuwait are also much improved than when Saddam Hussein was in power. Iraq instead of being an international pariah, is now your average Middle Eastern nation. Is it a model of democracy, stability, human rights, economic equality and technological innovation? No it is not, but I want an example of a nation that has had a war fought on it's soil in the past 25 years that is all of those things.

Did the invasion of Iraq cause the Arab Spring? Possibly. Still despite the many setbacks after the Arab Spring's hope of brining peace and democracy to the region (in Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Libya and others) it does have the possibility that Tunisia may turn into a stable democracy in the future.

So in 2013 the Middle East is a bad place. Dictators in Syria and Egypt (and others), rights trampled on in Saudi Arabia and Iran (and others), conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, anti-American/anti-western civilization terrorists groups bombing planes and killing people in other countries (ISIS/ISIL). Syria in civil war. Plus I'm sure we could list many other bad things, but compare this year to past years in the Middle East.

2003. Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen (plus other). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations, conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, active terrorist organizations (Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah) and war in Iraq.

1993 Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations, conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, active terrorist organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad), a civil war in Afghanistan and the region was on the brink of a civil war amongst the Iraqi Kurds and the beginning of an insurgency in Yemen, both of which would begin in 1994.

1983 Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations - especially the brutal way Al-Assad crushed an uprising in Syria in 1982. Israel and the Palestinians are still at odds, Russia is involved in a war in Afghanistan, Lebanon is in a civil war and Iran and Iraq are at war. Active terrorists organizations (PLO, PLF, PKK, Quds Force)

1973 Dictators in Egypt and Iran (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations. Israel and Palestinians still fighting. Active terrorists organizations (PLO, PKK). Yom Kippur War.

As you can see the Middle East has always been a war torn place for quite a while.

[Aeson]

I don't think it's fair to compare now and then in a vacuum assuming then would have continued to be then forever. Technology was going to promote populist movements eventually. It could very well be that those populist movements were less successful because of the West's long history of ****ing around with the Middle East. We've made democracy and capitalism (which both have amazing potential) look bad.

[Sava]

Hillary supported the war and seems to have survived supporting it.

Two things. Didn't mean to like this post.

Also, hopefully her political survival is short lived.

And no more cabinet positions for her either. Take a vacation. Go on some speaking tours. Maybe decorate the Bill Clinton library

[korn469]

I don't think it's fair to compare now and then in a vacuum assuming then would have continued to be then forever. Technology was going to promote populist movements eventually. It could very well be that those populist movements were less successful because of the West's long history of ****ing around with the Middle East. We've made democracy and capitalism (which both have amazing potential) look bad.

While you may be right, it's not like groups of Islamic militants are a new problem for either Europe or the US. Fighting against the Barbary Pirates were some of the first US military actions. These same groups of pirates had been plundering Europe since the late 1400's and remained a threat into the early 1800's.

[dannubis]

To be slightly contrarian yes the Middle East is a war ravaged hell hole and it seems that many people there are anti-American/anti-western, Islamic radicals and in no way do I think that the trillions of dollars spent on Iraq was worth it, but is it really that much worse than it was in 2003? (or 1993? or 1983? or 1973? or 1963? or 1953?)

Parts of Iraq that are under governmental control have a nominally democratic government instead of a totalitarian dictatorship. Iraq and Iran are on better terms now than they've been since maybe 1978 before the Iranian revolution. Relations between Iraq and Kuwait are also much improved than when Saddam Hussein was in power. Iraq instead of being an international pariah, is now your average Middle Eastern nation. Is it a model of democracy, stability, human rights, economic equality and technological innovation? No it is not, but I want an example of a nation that has had a war fought on it's soil in the past 25 years that is all of those things.

Did the invasion of Iraq cause the Arab Spring? Possibly. Still despite the many setbacks after the Arab Spring's hope of brining peace and democracy to the region (in Syria, Egypt, Yemen, Libya and others) it does have the possibility that Tunisia may turn into a stable democracy in the future.

So in 2013 the Middle East is a bad place. Dictators in Syria and Egypt (and others), rights trampled on in Saudi Arabia and Iran (and others), conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, anti-American/anti-western civilization terrorists groups bombing planes and killing people in other countries (ISIS/ISIL). Syria in civil war. Plus I'm sure we could list many other bad things, but compare this year to past years in the Middle East.

2003. Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen (plus other). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations, conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, active terrorist organizations (Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah) and war in Iraq.

1993 Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria, Yemen (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations, conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, active terrorist organizations (Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad), a civil war in Afghanistan and the region was on the brink of a civil war amongst the Iraqi Kurds and the beginning of an insurgency in Yemen, both of which would begin in 1994.

1983 Dictators in Libya, Iraq, Syria (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations - especially the brutal way Al-Assad crushed an uprising in Syria in 1982. Israel and the Palestinians are still at odds, Russia is involved in a war in Afghanistan, Lebanon is in a civil war and Iran and Iraq are at war. Active terrorists organizations (PLO, PLF, PKK, Quds Force)

1973 Dictators in Egypt and Iran (plus others). Rampant human rights violations across a number of nations. Israel and Palestinians still fighting. Active terrorists organizations (PLO, PKK). Yom Kippur War.

As you can see the Middle East has always been a war torn place for quite a while.

Summary: the place was a ****hole but they didn't hate us. We went in for the glory and profit of a few. Now the place is still a ****hole, and they hate us.

[korn469]

Summary: the place was a ****hole but they didn't hate us. We went in for the glory and profit of a few. Now the place is still a ****hole, and they hate us.

That's not what I said. But since it's so simple, please name a year when a group from the Middle East didn't hate one of the nations (US, UK, France, Ottomans, Germany, Italy) that have meddled in that region.

[Proteus_MST]

That's not what I said. But since it's so simple, please name a year when a group from the Middle East didn't hate one of the nations (US, UK, France, Ottomans, Germany, Italy) that have meddled in that region.

3000 BCE-~400 BCE

[korn469]

3000 BCE-~400 BCE

Sounds about right.