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Israel has shown incredible restraint in not being as bad as Nazi Germany.
Nazi Germany showed incredible restraint because they didn't use chemical weapons, they didn't eat babies, and they didn't use a giant rocket to crash the earth into the sun.
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Israel has shown incredible restraint in not being as bad as Nazi Germany.
Cockney was claiming the evil Jews were trying to kill all of the Palestinian civilians and I was pointing out if the Israelis wanted to they could eliminate most of the Palestinian population in a day. So obviously they are not really trying to do thst and Cockney is just babbling nonsense again.
Cockney was claiming the evil Jews were trying to kill all of the Palestinian civilians and I was pointing out if the Israelis wanted to they could eliminate most of the Palestinian population in a day. So obviously they are not really trying to do thst and Cockney is just babbling nonsense again.
the USA and russia have enough nuclear weapons to render the entire world uninhabitable. therefore, any action they take short of that is 'restrained'. great logic.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
'and lo from over yonder cometh the battle cry of the e-idf, the constant and unceasing chanting of which renders them impervious to rational thought and inspires them to great feats of stupidity and dishonesty, as oredin has so aptly proved in post 48...'
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
If you consider invading Afghanistan an appropriate (At least initially or in potential) response to 9-11, then you have to agree that at least any individual Israel action has been (at the given instance) an appropriate to Arab/Palestinian actions.
JM
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
So it is hypocritical or possibly even anti-semite for one to maintain that US or Europe should find Israel beyond the pale or guilty of heinous crimes.
On the other hand, I think it should be obvious to everyone (and even so in Israel) that Israel's actions will not lead to an acceptable outcome and so something different must be done.
JM
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
If you consider invading Afghanistan an appropriate (At least initially or in potential) response to 9-11, then you have to agree that at least any individual Israel action has been (at the given instance) an appropriate to Arab/Palestinian actions.
JM
i don't think those situations invite direct comparison. a much better comparison is with colonial conflicts or separatist struggles. i think the situation in israel/palestine has many similarities with apartheid south africa.
i did not support the war in afghanistan (nor that in iraq) and have posted many times over the years on this forum in oppositions to the various western military interventions. generally speaking, those who are pro-israel tend to be for western wars like afghanistan, iraq and libya. but as i said, they're not very good comparisons.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
If you consider invading Afghanistan an appropriate (At least initially or in potential) response to 9-11, then you have to agree that at least any individual Israel action has been (at the given instance) an appropriate to Arab/Palestinian actions.
There are some important differences. The US did not try to annex any portions of Afghanistan even after 9-11. Israel's formation was displacing Palestinians, and has been claiming more and more land over time.
A better (US) analog would be with the US and Native Americans.
you seem unable to differentiate between the palestinians and the various arab powers around them; either that or you're conflating them deliberately to cloud the issue.
Not at all. Palestinians were very much involved in hostilities against Israel in 1948.
It is my view that you're white-washing them and are unable or unwilling to assign them any responsibility for their own plight.
be that as it may, israel has had gaza under blockade since 2006, an aggressive act and an example of collective punishment, which is also a war crime. it has stolen and continues to steal palestinian land, kick out the inhabitants and plant jewish settlers on it, which is proscribed under the fourth geneva convention. they also, when the palestinians try to resist, take actions that kill hundreds of times as many civilians as the palestinians' actions. they attack the palestinians in diverse ways each and every day.
Gaza is ruled by a group that is hostile to Israel and aggressive towards them. It is hardly a war crime to blockade a principality with which a state is on periodic shooting terms with.
Again, you ignore anything the Palestinians do that leads to Israeli actions to protect themselves.
the USA and russia have enough nuclear weapons to render the entire world uninhabitable. therefore, any action they take short of that is 'restrained'. great logic.
Straw man. Israel has capabilities that it does not use, far short of nuclear weapons. They have not followed the Russian example of Grozny, for instance. That is restraint.
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Not at all. Palestinians were very much involved in hostilities against Israel in 1948.
It is my view that you're white-washing them and are unable or unwilling to assign them any responsibility for their own plight.
you appear to know very little about the history. the palestinians' role was to be kicked out of their land and deprived of their property by the israelis.
but in any case, saying that the war in 1948 justifies israel oppressing the palestinians in 2015 is a terrible argument.
Gaza is ruled by a group that is hostile to Israel and aggressive towards them. It is hardly a war crime to blockade a principality with which a state is on periodic shooting terms with.
Again, you ignore anything the Palestinians do that leads to Israeli actions to protect themselves.
collective punishment is a war crime. the blockade of gaza is a very clear example of collective punishment. every day the blockade remains in place is another day the israelis attack the palestinians. the israelis also continue to steal palestinian land in the west bank and colonise it with jewish settlers. this is also an aggressive act and a serious breach of international law. the israelis are the aggressors; the palestinians are defending themselves.
Straw man. Israel has capabilities that it does not use, far short of nuclear weapons. They have not followed the Russian example of Grozny, for instance. That is restraint.
not a straw man, but precisely the argument you made. you've just made it again; it hasn't become any less absurd.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
you appear to know very little about the history. the palestinians' role was to be kicked out of their land and deprived of their property by the israelis.
Actually, that would be you. Violence between Palestinians and Jews in what would become Israel predates partition. They continued that with partition and then proceeded to use violence as a means to gain their ends ever since, or do you have any clue what Munich means other than sausages?
but in any case, saying that the war in 1948 justifies israel oppressing the palestinians in 2015 is a terrible argument.
No, but Hamas continuing to state the destruction of Israel as a goal and doing **** to get there is.
Your continued blindness to the other side of the coin is unsurprising. It also demonstrates that conversation is just about absolutely useless.
Oh, it also demonstrates that you are pretty fundamentally dishonest when it comes to the topic since this is just the latest of your distortions and straw men.
collective punishment is a war crime. the blockade of gaza is a very clear example of collective punishment. every day the blockade remains in place is another day the israelis attack the palestinians. the israelis also continue to steal palestinian land in the west bank and colonise it with jewish settlers. this is also an aggressive act and a serious breach of international law. the israelis are the aggressors; the palestinians are defending themselves.
It is not collective punishment. It is a tool states may use when involved with states they are at war with.
But there's your problem, you can't recognize that the Palestinians do anything at all that Israel would have a right to be perturbed about. Discussion in this case is likely pointless. I realized that about when you said that Afghanistan in 2001 was not justified.
You're one of those peculiar people for whom black is white and the sky is green.
not a straw man, but precisely the argument you made. you've just made it again; it hasn't become any less absurd.
There is a very large field of choices for action between what the Israelis have taken and the use of nuclear weapons. They have been very restrained.
It actually gives me hope that Hollande, Obama, et al won't go ape ****.
Israel has lived it for 60 years. Maybe 'we' won't totally lose our nut.
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(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
Actually, that would be you. Violence between Palestinians and Jews in what would become Israel predates partition. They continued that with partition and then proceeded to use violence as a means to gain their ends ever since, or do you have any clue what Munich means other than sausages?
No, but Hamas continuing to state the destruction of Israel as a goal and doing **** to get there is.
oh, i thought you meant 1948 when you said 1948, but obviously you just wanted to blather on about any old ****e.
so just to be clear, your argument now is that the israeli oppression of the palestinians is justified by hamas? well that's still a terrible argument i'm afraid.
It is not collective punishment. It is a tool states may use when involved with states they are at war with.
But there's your problem, you can't recognize that the Palestinians do anything at all that Israel would have a right to be perturbed about. Discussion in this case is likely pointless. I realized that about when you said that Afghanistan in 2001 was not justified.
ah, so it's ignorance that is your problem. let me help you with that. the blockade was started after the kidnapping of an israeli soldier (gilad shalit); it was then intensified after hamas won the elections in gaza; it has been in place ever since. it's a crystal clear example of collective punishment.
you also don't appear to understand what a straw man argument is. let me help you again:
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent
you're welcome.
now intellectual dishonesty you seem to be well acquainted with, considering all the words you've put in my mouth, the changing of your arguments and the cant about 'seeing both sides' while ignoring or equivocating about the israeli actions mentioned.
There is a very large field of choices for action between what the Israelis have taken and the use of nuclear weapons. They have been very restrained.
again the argument you made - that restraint is measured by the potential to do damage - is absurd. a proper measurement would be to look at a response proportionately. for every israeli civilian killed by hamas or another palestinian group, the israeli military kills hundreds of palestinian civilians. therefore, the israeli responses to rocket attacks, which are themselves of course responses to the ongoing blockade, are massively disproportionate.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
There are some important differences. The US did not try to annex any portions of Afghanistan even after 9-11. Israel's formation was displacing Palestinians, and has been claiming more and more land over time.
A better (US) analog would be with the US and Native Americans.
I agree ...
there are things that absolutely make sense (like the bombardement of rocket positions)
thgere are things that are dubious (collective punishment, for example by destroying family homes because one member of the fmaily became a terrorist ... or killing kids, because they threw stones)
and there are things that are pure landgrab and serve no military/security sense ... and among the latter is the founding of new settlements or the expansion of existing ones.
It is clear that the latter one only serves the purpose of grabbing the most valuable territory in the westbank for Israel (and leave the palestinians with the more worthless parts of the Westbank)
IMHO the Palestinians would be best served if Israel would go full steam ahead and annex the whole territory (of Westbank and Gaza) including its inhabitants ... making them full citizens of Israel (including the protection of citizen rights).
But it is no surprise that Israel has no interest in such a solution, for understandable reasons (after all this would also result in the palestinians gaining a lot of influence in the israeli state (for demographic reasons ... perhaps even resulting in a palestinian government after the next elections or a shared israeli-palestinian government)
Tamsin (Lost Girl): "I am the Harbinger of Death. I arrive on winds of blessed air. Air that you no longer deserve." Tamsin (Lost Girl): "He has fallen in battle and I must take him to the Einherjar in Valhalla"
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