GOP "debate"

[Imran Siddiqui]

If the shoe fits, you should wear it, rah.

Of course it doesn't help when you cowardly try to say, that wasn't me - it was just the person I voted for, but that was just because I really didn't want to vote for the other person. Take some personal responsibility for your voting, jeez.

[Proteus_MST]

No it doesn't.

Well, without nation rebuilding germany would nowadays still be occupied territory, where the USA, France and GB would have to spend lots of money into policing and fightign partisans ... and I am sure that the 3rd Reic h (as well as the german Kaiserreich) would still be glorified in the memory of a large percentage of germans.

Or perhaps the soviet union would have seen a good opportunity to invade the rest of germany 1-3 decades after the war ... so that now, the whole of germany would be soviet territory.

Not to forget that without nation rebuilding of germany europe would have to fare without high quality Leopard 2 tanks

[rah]

Again one more time.
I am not personally responsible for everything a candidate does after I vote for him.
I do not know everything that he's going to do after elected.
I do not know if he misrepresented anything during the campaign (because politicians never lie on the campaign trail)

Do I own who I voted for, yep. But I am not PERSONALLY to blame.
It's not cowardly, it's reality.

Are you personally responsible and approve everything that Hillary has done or will do because you intend to vote for her? That's just an absurd standard.
Especially in American politics when it's choose one bozo over the other, and if you don't vote, you'll accuse them of not taking responsibility,

[Bereta_Eder]

Well, without nation rebuilding germany would nowadays still be occupied territory, where the USA, France and GB would have to spend lots of money into policing and fightign partisans ... and I am sure that the 3rd Reic h (as well as the german Kaiserreich) would still be glorified in the memory of a large percentage of germans.

Or perhaps the soviet union would have seen a good opportunity to invade the rest of germany 1-3 decades after the war ... so that now, the whole of germany would be soviet territory

What a wet dream

[Bereta_Eder]

Not to forget that without nation rebuilding of germany europe would have to fare without high quality Leopard 2 tanks

paid for by german bank loans as was the case

[Imran Siddiqui]

If someone I vote for goes to war, then yes, it's partially my fault. Tons of folks (well, maybe not tons, but plenty) were apologizing for voting for Bush after the debacle of the Iraq War.

[Bereta_Eder]

I think it has become deterministic by now that if a republican gets elected US will again get to be hated the world over, it will start wars and its poor will die more often.

If a democrat is elected the gap dividing it from the rest of the world will be less and it might even get a few chuckles and pats on the back. And fewer poor people will die.

[N35t0r]

This language was extremely violent and completely consistent with genocidal behaviour. The only possible defense could be if people assumed he was being completely hyperbolic, but given the anti-semitic violence that was growing in Germany at the time, that would be a pretty week defense.

I'd call it an ugly week... hell, more like ugly decade

[N35t0r]

I think it has become deterministic by now that if a republican gets elected US will again get to be hated the world over, it will start wars and its poor will die more often.

If a democrat is elected the gap dividing it from the rest of the world will be less and it might even get a few chuckles and pats on the back. And fewer poor people will die.

What? Have you been alive the past 7 years?

[Bereta_Eder]

Go on

[Imran Siddiqui]

I will say, I kind of like it when Bereta posts "Go on" - it feels like we are all at a cafe, sipping coffee, having a nice chat.

[kentonio]

Yes, a fine line. Misrepresentation of the facts and lying. I'll concede that one.

I guess I have to fall back on personal integrity. (waiting for a post to prove me wrong there too) but it's not the point, I have no interest in defending someone I don't even like.

I'm not going to go into full on Mitt attack mode, he stood on his words and positions and he lost. It's done.

My problem is that Imran is resorting to BK tactics by assuming others' motivations.
He does not know me. He also doesn't know my complete voting record. I voted for a Clinton before. He should keep his mouth shut about things he doesn't know.

It would be like saying that I think he's supporting Hillary because he had mommy issues and hoped this would help resolve them. I wouldn't insult him that way.

As far as I remember Bush didnt stand the first time on anything particularly extreme. He was pretty decent on immigration for instance IIRC. I don't think its fair to have expected anyone to know beforehand quite what a horror show his presidency would become.

[N35t0r]

Go on

I don't know over there in Europe, but over here, there was all sorts of hype when Obama got elected, but US image kind of quickly got back to (almost) bush-era by the first year of his presidency.

[Proteus_MST]

I don't know over there in Europe, but over here, there was all sorts of hype when Obama got elected, but US image kind of quickly got back to (almost) bush-era by the first year of his presidency.

Cannot say anything about other european countries,
but I think here in germany the image of the USA is considerably better with Obama, than it has been during the Bush era.
(although I am sure that it is not as good as it has been during the Clinton era)

Or at least it was until the new NSA surveillance scandals surfaced, which made it clear,
to which extent the USA collects data about every european citizen and company

[Imran Siddiqui]

As far as I remember Bush didnt stand the first time on anything particularly extreme. He was pretty decent on immigration for instance IIRC. I don't think its fair to have expected anyone to know beforehand quite what a horror show his presidency would become.

Depends on what you are discussing - he campaigned on major tax cuts, for instance. Obviously in terms of foreign policy one could say that 9/11 changed his mind, but the nomination of someone like Dick Cheney as his vice president may have indicated his ideas on that. Now, as I said, if you voted for Bush in 2004, then you were wanting the perpetuation of what he was doing in Iraq - note I didn't say the same for if you voted for him in 2000 (though I still think you have to take that on and mea culpa for it - as a number of folks did).