[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[C0ckney]

Cockney, the Greeks were NOT given an unworkable plan. The plan called for a combo of decreased expenses and/or increased revenue while the huge list of state owned companies and assets would be sold off to private investors to pay down the debt raising $75 billion to $200 billion depending on bid prices. While they were at it the troika suggested ways to liberalize the economy and improve the performance of the private sector.

Greece has refused to do this and just kept demanding more and more free cash which they have no plan to ever repay. THAT is what I call an unworkable proposition.

look, if a government cuts spending and raises taxes during a recession, the economy shrinks. if the problem is the country's debt to GDP ratio then this means the ratio, and therefore the problem, will become worse. in greece's case the economy shrank by 25%. this is really basic stuff; we (should have) learnt all this during the great depression. i don't think the EU/IMF are as stupid as some people who've bought their nonsense. they knew what they were doing and did it for the reasons i outlined.

as for transferring public assets into private hands during the crisis, well try this. put all your things up for sale, be sure to tell everyone you're really desperate and need to get rid of it like yesterday and see what kind of offers you get.

[pchang]

according to the chart pchang posted the greek state is already running a primary surplus, so they are covering day to day expenses, just not the debt repayments. further cuts and tax increases will only shrink the economy even further.

The chart just shows the 2 sides current negotiating stance. It does not reflect the current actuals. Actuals estimate that Greek government expenditure is about 50% of GDP while Greek government revenue is about 48% of GDP.

[Dinner]

Well, of course, that goes without saying.


I simply mentioned the steep VAT increase in the islands that the neoliberal nazis are proposing because you once claimed that we had to make our tourism industry "competitive"

You had another option of decreasing spending. Given how massively bloated the public sector is and how generous social security pensions are (even allowing people to retire at age 55 with full pensions) there is lots of room to adjust obligations so they are more in line with the government's actual ability to pay.

[C0ckney]

The chart just shows the 2 sides current negotiating stance. It does not reflect the current actuals. Actuals estimate that Greek government expenditure is about 50% of GDP while Greek government revenue is about 48% of GDP.

but is that including debt repayments?

[Bereta_Eder]

You had another option of decreasing spending. Given how massively bloated the public sector is and how generous social security pensions are (even allowing people to retire at age 55 with full pensions) there is lots of room to adjust obligations so they are more in line with the government's actual ability to pay.

As always, your data is currently completely wrong.

It's like watching a hamster hit its head against a wall again and again with the same tired arguments.

[C0ckney]

greece also achieved a primary surplus of €1.5 billion in 2013, according to the european commission.

[Dinner]

according to the chart pchang posted the greek state is already running a primary surplus, so they are covering day to day expenses, just not the debt repayments. further cuts and tax increases will only shrink the economy even further.

They should have thought of that before they screwed the pooch. Either way liberalize g the economy instead of being the most over regulated in Europe would help the private sector start growing again and lead to a durable recovery. For a half decade the Greeks refused to do this so they have no one to blame but themselves. They are ****ed but they ****ed themselves and now they get to pay for their lack of vision.

[Bereta_Eder]

I said I don't do drugs but you're probably smoking the good stuff

Please pass by putin, as you're his greatest ally ever btw

I'll try to put it as plain as possible because I know your difficulties with grey matter: taxes closed down SMEs. More taxes closed down more SMEs. Closed SMEs led to unemployment.

Greece goes boom (completely), europe goes boom (completely)

[pchang]

but is that including debt repayments?

It did not say. If we assume that it does include debt repayments then:
GDP is about 250 Billion Euros - 2% -> 5 Billion Euros
I'm pretty sure total debt repayments over the last year have been less than 5 Billion Euros

So, Greece is close to being self-sufficient, but not quite there.

[Dinner]

The chart just shows the 2 sides current negotiating stance. It does not reflect the current actuals. Actuals estimate that Greek government expenditure is about 50% of GDP while Greek government revenue is about 48% of GDP.

Exactly. I am not sure where Cockney is getting his numbers. They can't keep spending where it is, that is not possible, so cuts will have to be made. They CAN actually increase their competitiveness allowing the private sector to grow and that is entirely up to the government but the government has been unwilling.

[Bereta_Eder]

One more time: cuts will not be made. More cuts, more bad stuff. Bad.

[C0ckney]

They should have thought of that before they screwed the pooch. Either way liberalize g the economy instead of being the most over regulated in Europe would help the private sector start growing again and lead to a durable recovery. For a half decade the Greeks refused to do this so they have no one to blame but themselves. They are ****ed but they ****ed themselves and now they get to pay for their lack of vision.

you made a statement, i pointed out the mistake and you responded with this; it's just totally nonsensical.

yes growth would be good for greece, but programme imposed on it, which you and others fully back, caused the economy to shrink by a quarter. it's time for some different policies.

[Bereta_Eder]

can we also shoot them in a public square or do they get a free pass?

[C0ckney]

It did not say. If we assume that it does include debt repayments then:
GDP is about 250 Billion Euros - 2% -> 5 Billion Euros
I'm pretty sure total debt repayments over the last year have been less than 5 Billion Euros

So, Greece is close to being self-sufficient, but not quite there.

see post 50. the figures were a 2013 primary surplus of €1.5 billion and €1.9 billion in 2014.

[Bereta_Eder]

see post 50. the figures were a 2013 primary surplus of €1.5 billion and €1.9 billion in 2014.

I'd also like to add to that that this surplus is currently shrinking as a direct result of the financial strangulation the debtos placed these last 4 months as a way of "pressuring the gov into consessions".

It's like getting an axe and start hitting the branch you are on.

I wouldn't have expected anything different from those geniouses though. They've lost the game long before.