[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[Hauldren Collider]

You know Greece has deflation and high unemployment right? How could demand not be the issue when a quarter of your workforce is unemployed and the price level is falling?

Greece's "production" is largely a phantom, due to massive government borrowing. Most workers are actually producing very little, even when you ignore the fact that they retire early and collect generous pensions. Most government jobs in all countries are largely make-work, where employees are almost impossible to fire. This is as true in Greece as it is anywhere else, and Greece has a huge proportion of the economy tied up with government employment. So the problem is that the Greek economy is basically built around activity analogous to digging holes and filling them back in.

Greek workers will have to start actually producing things of value once Europe turns off the tap of German debt.

[Hauldren Collider]

Also, I think if Greeks actually paid their taxes, the economy would collapse. They need to start at some point, because their effective tax rate is remarkably small, but I suspect reducing household income by the amount necessary to pay off debt would effectively cripple demand at least in the short term. Regardless, the entire system and functioning of government appears built around the idea of getting something for nothing. I find that a little terrifying given the way trends have been over here.

[giblets]

Greece's "production" is largely a phantom, due to massive government borrowing. Most workers are actually producing very little, even when you ignore the fact that they retire early and collect generous pensions. Most government jobs in all countries are largely make-work, where employees are almost impossible to fire. This is as true in Greece as it is anywhere else, and Greece has a huge proportion of the economy tied up with government employment. So the problem is that the Greek economy is basically built around activity analogous to digging holes and filling them back in.

Greek workers will have to start actually producing things of value once Europe turns off the tap of German debt.

I think you might be overestimating the level of public sector employment by a bit.

[giblets]

The US has ~22 million public sector employees out of a labor force of ~155 million. So ~14% of the labor force works for the government. Greece at its peak had ~950,000 public sector employees out of a labor force of ~5.2 million, so ~18% of the labor force worked for the government. I think the main difference is Greece has nationalized health care and the US doesn't.

[Dinner]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=esBrbxRsV6c

It is rather long but it does have a section where it says 2/3rds of Greeks say they plan to retire before the age of 61 so they have a big glut of ba y boomers most of whom plan to retire early. Much of the rest of Europe doesn't get full old age pension be efits until 68.

Oh, and did I mention the Greek social security system is completely in solvent? Yep, they don't have the money to pay this and that is a massive problem. Any way you slice it Greeks are going to have to reconcile reality vs what they want because they have all been voting themselves free money for decades and now the government is broke. I don't care how many people vote for free **** if there is no money, there is no money so their refusals to bring spending in line with what the government actually can afford just makes them idiots and deserving of the crisis they have foolishly brought on themselves.

[kentonio]

Most government jobs in all countries are largely make-work, where employees are almost impossible to fire.

Please try and put aside this nonsense. Government performs a vast number of essential services, and all of them require skilled labour and administration. Calling it all make-work is just ignorant and condescending to people who work hard for a living.

[C0ckney]

Greece's "production" is largely a phantom, due to massive government borrowing. Most workers are actually producing very little, even when you ignore the fact that they retire early and collect generous pensions. Most government jobs in all countries are largely make-work, where employees are almost impossible to fire. This is as true in Greece as it is anywhere else, and Greece has a huge proportion of the economy tied up with government employment. So the problem is that the Greek economy is basically built around activity analogous to digging holes and filling them back in.

Greek workers will have to start actually producing things of value once Europe turns off the tap of German debt.

this is just nonsense. even in its own terms it's wrong, and i have posted the figures that show that in this very thread.

[C0ckney]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=esBrbxRsV6c

It is rather long but it does have a section where it says 2/3rds of Greeks say they plan to retire before the age of 61 so they have a big glut of ba y boomers most of whom plan to retire early. Much of the rest of Europe doesn't get full old age pension be efits until 68.

ah, so having had your greeks retire at 55 myth well and truly busted, you've now gone to 'well most greek plan to retire before 61'. next up 'most greeks plan to win the lottery', how will the lottery company avoid bankruptcy?

[Bereta_Eder]

Good morning!
(man I slept like a rock)

So in today's news dinner was disproven again. And we all know that his so called info, never mind his predictions, is always, always a piece of worthless crap.

That's fine.


However, I wan to ask a question. Is it really moraly admissible to laugh when something goes bad?

When greece was wondering wether joining hitler, in germany many people wrote about how wonderful greece was. When the decision was not to join, everyone in germany wrote how awuful greece was.

If our idea about something comes not from reality but from how reality fits into our brain, isn't that bad for us?


Also to the abu graib protagonist, if one can feel fine when something bad happens because it attributes it to the one that is suffering it, isn't that a sliperry slope?

[C0ckney]

Please try and put aside this nonsense. Government performs a vast number of essential services, and all of them require skilled labour and administration. Calling it all make-work is just ignorant and condescending to people who work hard for a living.

it's not actually the ideological view, though of course it may stem from that, that's the problem here, but rather the constant repetition of myths that have been disproved time and again. even from people so chary of acquainting themselves with facts as regcolider and oredin it's quite shocking.

[Hauldren Collider]

Government performs a vast number of essential services, and all of them require skilled labour and administration.

True.

Calling it all make-work is just ignorant and condescending to people who work hard for a living.

I didn't call it all make-work, just mostly make-work.

[Hauldren Collider]

The US has ~22 million public sector employees out of a labor force of ~155 million. So ~14% of the labor force works for the government. Greece at its peak had ~950,000 public sector employees out of a labor force of ~5.2 million, so ~18% of the labor force worked for the government. I think the main difference is Greece has nationalized health care and the US doesn't.

That seems low. Does it include government-owned corporations?

[regexcellent]

Please try and put aside this nonsense. Government performs a vast number of essential services, and all of them require skilled labour and administration. Calling it all make-work is just ignorant and condescending to people who work hard for a living.

Yeah, they require skilled labor and administration, but that's a minority of the work that actually gets done. It is mostly make-work.

My sympathy for Greeks is especially small considering they don't pay their taxes.

If Greece wants its economy to improve, it needs to curtail government pensions and eliminate government programs. It also needs to remove labor laws that prevent hiring people for longer hours at lower pay.

[C0ckney]

[Jon Miller]

Greece's "production" is largely a phantom, due to massive government borrowing. Most workers are actually producing very little, even when you ignore the fact that they retire early and collect generous pensions. Most government jobs in all countries are largely make-work, where employees are almost impossible to fire. This is as true in Greece as it is anywhere else, and Greece has a huge proportion of the economy tied up with government employment. So the problem is that the Greek economy is basically built around activity analogous to digging holes and filling them back in.

Greek workers will have to start actually producing things of value once Europe turns off the tap of German debt.

This is nonsense. Before the most recent difficulties Greece was running a primary surplus.

Additionally, a large part of the debt was bank bailouts.

Greece has a tax problem but it isn't so big the country should be condemned.

JM