[civil] "Greece moves closer to eurozone exit after delaying €300m repayment to IMF "

[PLATO]

The church buildings aren't worth all that much. It's the land they're sitting on that is in some cases worth a lot of money if they're in the middle of a major city. The property is worth a lot because of the opportunity cost of not demolishing the buildings and replacing it with something more productive. If land value taxation is practiced, non-profit organization shouldn't be exempted from paying the land value tax because that would give them an incentive to take up too much land. How many medieval church buildings does a country really need? I'd say ten is plenty for a small country like Greece. I don't see anything wrong with bulldozing the rest and replacing them with commercial buildings. If Greek Christians disagree, they can donate sufficient amounts of money to the Church to pay the land value taxes.

Or...if they disagree they could vote tax exempt status for the churches...which is what I believe they have done.

[giblets]

Or...if they disagree they could vote tax exempt status for the churches...which is what I believe they have done.

Yes, that's already been mentioned:

exactly. a very big issue since noone wants to "touch" the church. syriza has too many open fronts at present to touch on this one.
in due time.

they control all the old grandmas during the speech after sunday's mass. and they are a heck of a large voting percentage.

Of course Christians can vote themselves out of paying taxes just like anyone else.

[C0ckney]

well this discussion has taken an interesting turn; it seems that church property, even far away, is sacred to some.

i find some of the attitudes expressed a little strange. the greek church does not pay its priests, they are paid by the state. the idea that it's fine for taxpayers, whatever their religious persuasion, to pay for the clergy, but not to own the buildings, is rather odd. greek priests also charge for their services (a birth, praise be, that's €x for the baptism, you're getting married, a holy union, that'll be €x for me to officiate, someone's died, my condolences, they've returned to god, i charge €x for the funeral) in the way that people across southern europe and south america will be familiar with. the greek church is an established church, so concerns about the state involvement in religion would be better directed towards the disestablishment of the church.

[PLATO]

well this discussion has taken an interesting turn; it seems that church property, even far away, is sacred to some.

i find some of the attitudes expressed a little strange. the greek church does not pay its priests, they are paid by the state. the idea that it's fine for taxpayers, whatever their religious persuasion, to pay for the clergy, but not to own the buildings, is rather odd. greek priests also charge for their services (a birth, praise be, that's €x for the baptism, you're getting married, a holy union, that'll be €x for me to officiate, someone's died, my condolences, they've returned to god, i charge €x for the funeral) in the way that people across southern europe and south america will be familiar with. the greek church is an established church, so concerns about the state involvement in religion would be better directed towards the disestablishment of the church.

This is how we learn. Thanks COckney. That sheds a bit of a different light on things. If the church is receiving direct government aid though, then perhaps their is some responsibility on the members to help with this cost.

[PLATO]

Jon Miller

[Hauldren Collider]

The church buildings aren't worth all that much. It's the land they're sitting on that is in some cases worth a lot of money if they're in the middle of a major city. The property is worth a lot because of the opportunity cost of not demolishing the buildings and replacing it with something more productive. If land value taxation is practiced, non-profit organization shouldn't be exempted from paying the land value tax because that would give them an incentive to take up too much land. How many medieval church buildings does a country really need? I'd say ten is plenty for a small country like Greece. I don't see anything wrong with bulldozing the rest and replacing them with commercial buildings. If Greek Christians disagree, they can donate sufficient amounts of money to the Church to pay the land value taxes.

[C0ckney]

This is how we learn. Thanks COckney. That sheds a bit of a different light on things. If the church is receiving direct government aid though, then perhaps their is some responsibility on the members to help with this cost.

yeah, i think yours and JM's objections are principled ones, but the facts of a particular situation often put a different light on things.

one thing that could be done is to simply have the church pay its staff instead of the state. this would break a historical agreement (which if memory serves is from the 1920s), but i think such a move would be less controversial politically and would get around 12000 people off the government payroll.

[N35t0r]

While I agree with the right of two men (or women...or woman/man) to marry, I don't believe that you can dictate religious belief for the sake of tax exempt status.

Hm? I think that the idea is that, if taxpayers are (indirectly) supporting the building's maintenance, then they should be allowed the use the building if they wish. I could see a certain rate being charged for organising events, which would go to building maintenance, and if, say, there is to be a gay wedding, then of course the church wouldn't be obliged to officiate the ceremony.

[PLATO]

yeah, i think yours and JM's objections are principled ones, but the facts of a particular situation often put a different light on things.

one thing that could be done is to simply have the church pay its staff instead of the state. this would break a historical agreement (which if memory serves is from the 1920s), but i think such a move would be less controversial politically and would get around 12000 people off the government payroll.

That certainly looks like a good starting point..."Pay your own people and keep tax exempt status or we will pay them and you pay taxes".

[kentonio]

Who is "we"?

It should really be 'the things historians consider the most priceless artifacts. You can have items that are thousands of years old and work financially hundreds of times less than a modern painting on the market for instance. That doesn't mean that they are culturally hundreds of times less valuable than the painting is.

[kentonio]

I think that State owned religious buildings is a recipe for disaster. Freedom of religion demands some independence from the government. Governments can change and they have absolute power...having ownership of a church could lead to "You can't preach that here because it is government owned and the government does not believe that is correct." You may not practice eligion on your own, but I do hope that you support the right of freedom of religion.

That's just your Americanism coming out.

Seriously, the church and state have been closely tied together in the UK for a very, very long time (not my ideal scenario I stress to add) but it's been an awfully long time since you had the state trying to tell the church what they can preach. The world just isn't like that anymore, and especially not when its just a case of historical building conservation.

[giblets]

It should really be 'the things historians consider the most priceless artifacts. You can have items that are thousands of years old and work financially hundreds of times less than a modern painting on the market for instance. That doesn't mean that they are culturally hundreds of times less valuable than the painting is.

Historians might be biased.

[PLATO]

That's just your Americanism coming out.

You are indeed correct. It is sometimes hard to understand the workings of such relationships from a non-American point of view when you have been indoctrinated for over 50 years!

[PLATO]

Jon Miller

[kentonio]

Historians might be biased.

It actually shocks me how cheap some ancient artifacts are when they are sold. They might just be a **** pottery jug or something, but you'd think having survived for 3000 years or whatever would give something value.