Fight Fire with Fire

[Kidlicious]

You all deserve what you get in this thread, but especially MRT.

[Thoth]

That would also have the benefit that we could screen potential parents before they get to grow a kid. Nothing too controversial, just stuff like "you must pass a breathalyzer when you sign the paperwork" - if you can't stay sober long enough to sign your child acquisition paperwork then you shouldn't raise a kid.

That requirement would be defacto genocide against the Scottish.

[regexcellent]

I'm confused, are you claiming they have the right to put it up for adoption instead of keeping it or they don't have the right to put it up for adoption? And why do you have to have ****ed up moral foundations to not believe uteruses are public property?

Yes the parents can put it up for adoption, and what the hell are you talking about with public property? Do you also think that, by requiring parents not to abandon their children that have been born, their dwellings are public property?

Look, this isn't complicated. Just like you can't kill your child because taking care of a child is a lot of work and expense and time, IF A FETUS HAS THE SAME MORAL RIGHTS AS A BABY OUTSIDE THE WOMB, then killing your fetus is wrong. This is predicated on the widely accepted axiom that killing a person is wrong unless he has made a conscious decision to harm someone else. Some people (myself included) also believe it's okay to kill in a trolley problem type situation. Abortion fits in neither category unless the mother's life is at risk.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if a fetus does not have rights by way of not being a moral person, then killing your fetus to spare yourself raising a child, going through pregnancy etc. etc. is not wrong.

Thus the entire abortion debate is about whether or not a fetus is a moral person. End of story. If you want to debate abortion, debate whether a fetus is a moral person.

[giblets]

Children don't have the right to inhabit someone else's body. The government doesn't have the right to invade women's privacy by trying to determine if a pregnancy ended naturally or by artificial intervention.

[regexcellent]

Oh for the love of Jesus, stop being so obtuse. Do children have the right to inhabit the home of their parents? Does the government have a right to invade a woman's privacy to make sure that she doesn't kick her toddler out into the street?

The answer to both of those, by the way, is yes. You believe that children can't "inhabit a woman's body" because you don't believe that a fetus has rights like children do. And this is preventing you from seeing the very simple, very straightforward logic that follows from the basic assumption that fetuses have rights.

I don't think you're intellectually equipped for this conversation. I'm holding out some hope that this is a troll.

[giblets]

Oh for the love of Jesus, stop being so obtuse. Do children have the right to inhabit the home of their parents? Does the government have a right to invade a woman's privacy to make sure that she doesn't kick her toddler out into the street?

The answer to both of those, by the way, is yes. You believe that children can't "inhabit a woman's body" because you don't believe that a fetus has rights like children do. And this is preventing you from seeing the very simple, very straightforward logic that follows from the basic assumption that fetuses have rights.

I don't think you're intellectually equipped for this conversation.

Actually, you said they can be put up for adoption. Why would you bring that up if you think children have the right to be raised by their biological parents?

[loinburger]

Children don't have the right to inhabit someone else's body.

It's not like the fetus intentionally invaded somebody's uterus. If an unborn child counts as a moral person, then abortion is like inviting somebody into your home and then killing them for trespassing.

[regexcellent]

Abandonment is not the same thing as putting a child up for adoption or into foster care. And putting a child up for adoption is not at all analogous to aborting a fetus.

[giblets]

It's not like the fetus intentionally invaded somebody's uterus. If an unborn child counts as a moral person, then abortion is like inviting somebody into your home and then killing them for trespassing.

I don't think regexcellent would let rape victims have abortions either.

[regexcellent]

No, I wouldn't, because the fetus is not at fault for the pregnancy. The rapist was. The harm to the mother of going through pregnancy is deeply regrettable but not nearly as bad as killing a baby.

[giblets]

No, I wouldn't, because the fetus is not at fault for the pregnancy. The rapist was. The harm to the mother of going through pregnancy is deeply regrettable but not nearly as bad as killing a baby.

You're a socialist. Forcing rape victims to give birth to babies is slavery.

[Egbert]

No, I wouldn't, because the fetus is not at fault for the pregnancy. The rapist was. The harm to the mother of going through pregnancy is deeply regrettable but not nearly as bad as killing a baby.

It is very easy to decide the balance of pain, for others.

Particularly when one can't feel a thing because all the pains are felt by others.

I say, let the expectant mother decide.

[regexcellent]

Yes, you say that because you don't value the life of the fetus. Other people do, and if you consider a fetus' life as valuable as your own, or that of the mother even, then the answer to not let her abort is obvious. By saying "let the mother decide" you're rejecting the idea that there are two parties in this dispute: the mother, and the baby.

[giblets]

Yes, you say that because you don't value the life of the fetus. Other people do, and if you consider a fetus' life as valuable as your own, or that of the mother even, then the answer to not let her abort is obvious. By saying "let the mother decide" you're rejecting the idea that there are two parties in this dispute: the mother, and the baby.

You don't get it. Her body is not a resource to be managed for the greater good.

[regexcellent]

Neither is the life of the fetus; unfortunately, we're presented with a dilemma.