He is risen!

[Kidlicious]

It doesn't strike me as surprising that people are inventive enough to come up with reasons not to commit suicide. Rather, it strikes me as a pretty direct consequence of that whole natural selection thing. So the fact that people can feel motivated by their invented purposes doesn't seem to have any bearing on what's objectively meaningful.

Why would anyone care about what is objectively meaningful? Can that motivate us?

[kentonio]

It doesn't strike me as surprising that people are inventive enough to come up with reasons not to commit suicide. Rather, it strikes me as a pretty direct consequence of that whole natural selection thing. So the fact that people can feel motivated by their invented purposes doesn't seem to have any bearing on what's objectively meaningful.

The fact that you think suicide would be the natural outcome for a life that didn't have some greater meaning says more about how you see the world, than how it needs to be seen. There's no rational reason why having some greater purpose or meaning to life should make it any more compelling, the only driving force there is the fear of death. Also humanities painful obsession with needing to see ourselves as part of some vast cosmic plan.

[Lorizael]

The fact that you think suicide would be the natural outcome for a life that didn't have some greater meaning says more about how you see the world, than how it needs to be seen.

Nope. I don't think there's some greater meaning we can (currently) know, and I don't want to commit suicide. But suicidal people are often hung up on life's meaninglessness, which is why it seems very reasonable that perceived meaning is a defense against suicide (or apathy) and nothing more.

[kentonio]

Nope. I don't think there's some greater meaning we can (currently) know, and I don't want to commit suicide. But suicidal people are often hung up on life's meaninglessness, which is why it seems very reasonable that perceived meaning is a defense against suicide (or apathy) and nothing more.

Why? If we accept that we're just animals lucky enough to perceive the world in complex and interesting ways, isn't it just natural that we'd want to achieve the best result we can in that time, and being fairly simple primates those needs are at their core fairly simple?

[Kidlicious]

Why? If we accept that we're just animals lucky enough to perceive the world in complex and interesting ways, isn't it just natural that we'd want to achieve the best result we can in that time, and being fairly simple primates those needs are at their core fairly simple?

There's a qualitative difference between wild speculation that cats are spiritual beings and accepting that we are just animals.

[Elok]

If your subjective sense of the meaningfulness of your own existence is the only measure here, there are an essentially infinite number of ways one might find such meaning, and no way to judge between them. You like to do whatever you do; I like to do what I do; a homeless schizophrenic likes to puzzle over how exactly everyone he meets might be tied into the grand CIA conspiracy to beam bizarre thoughts of frogs into his mind. Each of us finds his own way deeply meaningful to himself, and to say that any one way is better than any other, regardless of its morality, rationality, or inanity, is an act of asinine existential provincialism.

Medieval persecutions of heretics were sensible by comparison. It is at least possible that there is a God and He wants us to burn Cathars alive. Having excluded intrinsic meaning or transcendence, any such road is closed to you. If it's all so much dicking around, then anything one chooses, even heretic-burning, is a perfectly valid way to dick away the years. The only possible way to maybe impose an "ought" on the situation is in cases where one's chosen means of dicking around is self-destructive. But I don't think you even have the grounds to look down on that.

[Lorizael]

Why? If we accept that we're just animals lucky enough to perceive the world in complex and interesting ways, isn't it just natural that we'd want to achieve the best result we can in that time, and being fairly simple primates those needs are at their core fairly simple?

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at here, but I don't think any of it conflicts with what I said. My point here is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to think the feeling that our lives are meaningful is anything other than a means of motivating us to meet our needs.

[kentonio]

There's a qualitative difference between wild speculation that cats are spiritual beings and accepting that we are just animals.

We are just animals. Animals is a category that we absolutely fall under the definition of.

animal
ˈanɪm(ə)l/Submit
noun
1.
a living organism which feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.

[Kidlicious]

If your subjective sense of the meaningfulness of your own existence is the only measure here, there are an essentially infinite number of ways one might find such meaning, and no way to judge between them. You like to do whatever you do; I like to do what I do; a homeless schizophrenic likes to puzzle over how exactly everyone he meets might be tied into the grand CIA conspiracy to beam bizarre thoughts of frogs into his mind. Each of us finds his own way deeply meaningful to himself, and to say that any one way is better than any other, regardless of its morality, rationality, or inanity, is an act of asinine existential provincialism.

Medieval persecutions of heretics were sensible by comparison. It is at least possible that there is a God and He wants us to burn Cathars alive. Having excluded intrinsic meaning or transcendence, any such road is closed to you. If it's all so much dicking around, then anything one chooses, even heretic-burning, is a perfectly valid way to dick away the years. The only possible way to maybe impose an "ought" on the situation is in cases where one's chosen means of dicking around is self-destructive. But I don't think you even have the grounds to look down on that.

Believing in that which you have passion for does not exclude the possibility of believing that God exists or that you are fulfilling the purpose that God has for you. It's unclear why you believe that so I can't comment further at this time.

[kentonio]

If your subjective sense of the meaningfulness of your own existence is the only measure here, there are an essentially infinite number of ways one might find such meaning, and no way to judge between them. You like to do whatever you do; I like to do what I do; a homeless schizophrenic likes to puzzle over how exactly everyone he meets might be tied into the grand CIA conspiracy to beam bizarre thoughts of frogs into his mind. Each of us finds his own way deeply meaningful to himself, and to say that any one way is better than any other, regardless of its morality, rationality, or inanity, is an act of asinine existential provincialism.

And? Why should we judge between them, other than in cases where one persons actions affect the group in a negative way?

Medieval persecutions of heretics were sensible by comparison. It is at least possible that there is a God and He wants us to burn Cathars alive. Having excluded intrinsic meaning or transcendence, any such road is closed to you. If it's all so much dicking around, then anything one chooses, even heretic-burning, is a perfectly valid way to dick away the years. The only possible way to maybe impose an "ought" on the situation is in cases where one's chosen means of dicking around is self-destructive. But I don't think you even have the grounds to look down on that.

No, you went too far with the idea. What people define as purpose is their own business, but when that has a negative effect on other humans then the question becomes how does this help us as a social group or species. Continuation of genetic material is coded into us somehow, because otherwise we wouldn't have the instincts towards children that we do.

[kentonio]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at here, but I don't think any of it conflicts with what I said. My point here is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to think the feeling that our lives are meaningful is anything other than a means of motivating us to meet our needs.

Why would it exist as a motivation though? Isn't it far more likely that its merely a byproduct of how we naturally view the world as working on a level that we comprehend? We see the world through human eyes, and so we instinctively attach design and purpose to each thing we see, whether we mean to or not.

[Kidlicious]

We are just animals. Animals is a category that we absolutely fall under the definition of.

animal
ˈanɪm(ə)l/Submit
noun
1.
a living organism which feeds on organic matter, typically having specialized sense organs and nervous system and able to respond rapidly to stimuli.

Stop moving the goal posts. No, really.

[Kidlicious]

I'm honestly not sure what you're getting at here, but I don't think any of it conflicts with what I said. My point here is that there doesn't seem to be any reason to think the feeling that our lives are meaningful is anything other than a means of motivating us to meet our needs.

Christians believe that there's a spiritual aspect to that, that's why we do things that don't make sense from the point of view that we only have physical motivation, like sacrificing yourself on a cross.

[Lorizael]

Why would it exist as a motivation though? Isn't it far more likely that its merely a byproduct of how we naturally view the world as working on a level that we comprehend? We see the world through human eyes, and so we instinctively attach design and purpose to each thing we see, whether we mean to or not.

If the feeling of meaningfulness is not even a motivational tool and just a byproduct of our cognition, then there's even less of a reason to think it connects up with any objective sense of meaning.

[kentonio]

Stop moving the goal posts. No, really.

There are no goalposts to move. Animal is a human defined category that we fall squarely into. We're an evolutionary product of millions of generations, and personally I feel extremly grateful for the very kind hand I was dealt, compared to our ancestors whose lives were short, brutal and hard.